| Archive for nmfhssouthport.myfreeforum.org North Meols (Southport) Family History Society |
| silverhammer |
ArcariAny information on Arcari family around the 1930s, believed to be ice cream makers/sellers. |
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| admin |
Is the Arcari family from Ainsdale fruit and veg shop related to you? I remember them from the 1970s as I went to school with one of the daughters. | ||
| Guest |
Whoops I should have checked in here earlier.
Re Arcaris at veg and fruit shop. I know I am not related, however my info on them is from the 1930's. My quandry is: a person that used to work for them back then may be my grandfather. This person was supposedly killed sept/oct 1930 in a motorcycle accident, no sign of his death shows in any official records. I have a picture of his fresh grave and it looks like it might be private property as against a cemetary. I wondered if in fact he was buried on his employers (Arcari's) property. I believe the Southport library has newspapers dating back to the time, I would imagine an accidental death would likely be in the paper? Are there people who will do searches of these things?? The name of the person I am checking on is Victor Thorne. Larry |
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| MrEd |
Arcari
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| Dotty |
Brings back memories...I remember a man on a trike selling icecream, I wonder if it was the same man?Any further news from Larry? Dotty :?: |
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| silverhammer |
Well I am way overdue, I have just realised there were replies in this thread. I was researching a man (could have been my mother's father) who worked for Mr Arcari the Ice Cream seller in the 1930's, yes MrEd, that indeed sounds like the Mr Arcari I was looking for. My mother had since made progress in finding her possible father, and this small clue that Mr Arcari really did exist was helpful to her. She has since passed away and I am going through her files etc and bringing this to a conclusion was a small job I needed to do.
My Gt Grandmother was a Betsy Edith Mack and she had a fancy dress shop in Lord St in the late 1920's early 1930's, she lived at "The Sylvan Grange" 28 Duke St. There are a few old Southport references including pictures in my mothers files, I shall post some here when I can. Larry |
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| ray green |
Not about the AcarisI'll go nuts if if I can't remember who sold ice cream from a trike round High Park. Oh My God I just have ! It was Bob Marshall, I think his premises were in Norwood Road, also in in an outside wash house. |
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| bobg |
The 1914-15 street directory has only 2 Thornes.
Mrs Vincent Thorne, lodging house keeper, 56 Banastre Rd. (corner of Linaker St) Mr Vincent Thorne, lodging house keeper, several listings as follows: - 161 Sefton St. home - 117 Boundary St (no occupation listed) - 141 & 143 Boundary St. property dealer. - 88 to 98 Boundary St. lodging house keeper, (all the houses between Hampton Rd & Sefton St). - 156 Hampton Rd. lodging house. (corner of Boundary St) Could they be the parents of Victor? Hope this helps. |
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| silverhammer |
Yes Victor's father was Vincent, the one at 156 Hampton Rd. My mother had made some ground regarding all this since I first posted here in 2006, in fact she ended up connecting with a relative of Victor's. It is believed Victor worked for Mr Arcari on ocassions selling Ice Cream from one of those carts.
It's been a funny one, my grandmother threw into the equation that Victor was killed on a motorbike in 1930 (conveniently just before my mother was born) but we found this not to be true, although I do have a picture of "the grave". It's all very odd. I think the whole thing was a bit of a tangled web and she was possibly protecting him somewhat given he already had a family. To any descendant of Victor's I would say "nothing has been proven, this is just a riddle that my grandmother put forth with some truths and some maybe not. Larry |
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| bobg |
In 1914 Mr Alesio Arcari of 24 Fernley Rd was listed as an Ice Cream Dealer. Close to where the Thorne's lived. | ||
| silverhammer |
That'll be our man, the next thing I've often wondered is was Victor related to the Arcari's. Victor's brother was Alonso, good italian name.
Not that it changes anything. I have attached the picture I found in my Grandmother's photo collection, supposedly Victor's grave...but it is well known he lived to be in his 70's. It's an odd picture, doesn't look like a cemetary, looks almost like a set up. Maybe someone might recognise the location, note the horse and cart coming out of the barn in the background. Larry 
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| Dotty |
Oh...I see what you mean about the staging of the photo.Nice composition but it does look artificial...have you had any contact with Victor's family? 
Dotty |
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| Jane |
Well I suppose cemeteries were less full then but...............it does look an odd picture of a grabe
Do you know when & where Victor died? |
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| silverhammer |
My mother had contact with two relatives of Victor Thorne's family, they were cousins or second cousins. I have recently also communicated with one of them and he has been very helpful but of course no-one can confirm the ultimate ie...was Victor my grandfather. We had considered DNA tests, my mother unfortunatly has passed away not completely knowing the answer.
I still have the audio recording of the interview I did with my grandmother, in it she states Victor was killed on his motorbike as he drove away from meeting her, hit by a bus, October 1930. She even say's she was there and witnessed it all. But..the fact remains the Victor Thorne we have focused on lived into his 70's. I am sure it is the right Victor, he fits the Arcari connection and lived in the next street. The story is she was already expecting my mother when he was killed, she then met another man who married her anyway. His name was Stanley Rimmer and he lived in Union St. But Stanley was definitly not my mother's natural father. The problem I have is, if my grandmother fabricated part of the story did she also fabricate the rest? So, it is one of those mysteries that may never be unraveled. I appreciate the input here though, small clues are helpful and you never know what pops up. Larry |
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| Jane |
Um so what you are saying is the wrong man's name went on the birth certificate as father?
Maybe DNA tests are the only way to know for certain As for the accident and death of victor Thorne - there might be a report in one of the local newspapers of the time. They are kept in the local reference library. I offer free research for our members because of the time it takes. At that time we had 2 local papers - one was a twice weekly, the other thrice weekly - so a lot of papers to look through |
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| silverhammer |
Jane, yes the wrong name is on the birth certificate. Nora married Stanley Feb 4th 1931. My mother was born May 3rd 1931. Victor supposedly killed October 1930. We have already had searches of local papers done, and extensivly checked deaths at that time, no Victor Thorne's had accidents nor died in 1930.
Here is the audio mp3 of my conversation with my grandmother recorded mid 1990's. She was getting on then and seemed ready to "confess" all. Nora speaks about Victor! Larry |
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| Jane |
I suspect things when there is no proof to back them up.
But i love a good mystery too. Unless you can find Victor in the birth, death, marriage indexes or in a directory or on an electoral register then it may just have to remain a mystery........ |
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| SeaCopRimmer |
Is it possible that Victor sent the postcard to somebody - showing the grave of 'his love'? | ||
| silverhammer |
Victor is there alright, born 1896 and in the 1901 census. Parents Vincent and Anne, brothers Vincent, Alonzo, John and sister margaret. Tying Victor to the Arcari's was important, as it meant it was definitly this Victor.
I found the photo after my grandmother died, she never gave it to me, so in my mind it seemed to verify her story. (Good thought Seacoprimmer...it could be interpreted that way...except Nora mentions the death in her interview). I had also considered the possibilty that someone else was the man in question and was killed as told, but Victor took the rap! Unlikely but you have to look at all angles. Larry |
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| Dotty |
I wonder...Another possibility is that the young man who was killed by the bus was not the real Victor Thorne. If your gran was just pregnant at his death it could mean that they hadn't been courting long... |
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| silverhammer |
Yes true, so it is probably still worth searching for anyone killed in a motorbike accident Southport October 1930.
When you listen to the recording I think you'll agree my grandmother doesn't bat an eyelid when she tells the story. Larry |
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| Jane |
you are clever putting that link on....and she sounds so certain and sure of the name.
Guess who will be rooting through the papers for October 1930  .....if I find any report of an accident I shall keep you all informed
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| silverhammer |
Thanks Jane, my profession is sound designer so audio is what I do. Also why I interviewed my grandmother as I have done with a few other relatives.
Anything you find gratefully received. Larry |
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| ray green |
I for one will be gobsmacked if granny isn't telling the truth. How about the accent? Fifty years in NZ and still broad Lancashire.
Surely there would have been an inquest, do the records still exist I wonder? Also it would have been recorded in the minutes of the relevant Southport Corporation committee I would think (unless it was a Ribble bus). |
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| silverhammer |
Nora and her brother and sister all came to New Zealand and all kept their accent. Good point about the bus records, of course there would have been a fuss. Yes she sounds so believeable which has had us all very confused when we found out Victor Thorne was already married and lived into his 70's. Perplexing indeed.
Larry |
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| Jane |
Inquest records sometimes last but I know there is a 70 year closure on them. Of course in this case that is past. If they exist I think they would have been lodged with the Lancashire record Office in Preston
no idea about bus company records. Of course we now have Arriva so I suspect any old records may have been thrown away. If anything happened then it would have been reported As for accents. My 2nd cousin & his wife emigrated in the 1960's to Australia. They first visited me 3/4 years ago and have broad Yorkshire accents still
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| ray green |
I see that the Merseyside Records Office hold the minutes of Southport Corporation Transport Committee and the General Manager's Annual Reports from 1901 to 1974. I would expect such an incident to be recorded in both sources. BTW in 1930 the Corpy only had twelve buses so Victor was singularly unlucky to hit one. | ||
| Jane |
I've had a search through the Visiter today. Lots of car accidents, people knocked over etc but no reports of anyone in collision on a motorbike or with a bus.....................there's still The Guardian to look at.
Are you absolutely sure of the month? |
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| Dotty |
Is it me?I say...where is the link please? I can't see it (or hear it) for love nor money... :smt010Larry, you have given us a real mystery...no wonder it has gripped you! Dotty
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| bobg |
Dotty,
It is the Nora speaks about Victor! in blue in 'Larry's message. just click on it. 
Bob |
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| Jane |
Top post on page 2.........it is in blue letters. Just click | ||
| silverhammer |
Regarding the date of the "accident", the photo has "Oct 1930" as the date it is taken, could possibly have been September 1930 but given my mother was born May 3rd 1931 her father would have to have been alive beginning of september 1930. I know the photo and the interview make it seem like it stacks up but I still wonder if my grandmother embellished the story. My great uncle, (her brother) used to say she was a bit of a dreamer. Larry |
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| silverhammer |
I am only just beginning to go through a whole lot of papers from my Mother's house, amongst them quite a few communications to people re Victor Thorne. Reading one email I see the Victor we have been focusing on definitly had connections with the local fairground, and definitly died in 1971. She had in fact managed to connect with relatives of Victor's.
It really does make the story of the accident/death a huge anomally. Larry |
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| Dotty |
?Hello LarryI hope it gives you some measure of comfort that there are people on the other side of the world seeking to answer your questions. Is the writing on the back of the postcard your grandmother's? I would expect it to be hers as it says 'my love'. No-one likes to be in her predicament...pregnant and unmarried...and she may have concocted a reason why 'her love' was unable to do the decent thing and marry her. But you are already wondering whether this was the case. I am at work and we have no sound so I will listen to her link when at home. Fingers crossed for a resolution... Dotty
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| silverhammer |
I have assumed it is her handwriting as I found the photo in her collection but...now you mention it I have some old letters of her's - will compare.
I have just found another email of my mother's where someone describes Victor Thorne, I have another photo of man that fits the description - Nora descibes the gentleman in the picture as an aqauintance of her mother's who took her to see Al Jolson's "Sonny Boy". I am hoping to contact the writer of the email (dated 2006) to see if I can get them to look at the photo. Nora say's in the recording "I never told mother who it was" referring to the father, well if the father was an aqauintance of her mother's for sure she wouldn't tell. Yes I am very grateful for anything anyone on this forum finds out, but don't expect anyone to go to any trouble. Larry |
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| silverhammer |
By the way, the gentleman is leaning against a car that i assume is his. The number plate is clearly visible. Does anyone know if it is possible to look up records of such things and ascertain the owner?
The number is: UW6815 and I think the year is about 1927 - 1930 Larry |
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| Dotty |
?It just gets curiouser and curiouser...
Our local paper The Southport Visiter has a 'Look Back' coloumn which has old photos and asks for info. Maybe you could consider letting them have a copy of the gentleman and car and ask for info...what does anyone else think? Dotty 
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| Jane |
Good idea Dotty.
If you go to their web site they show the Look Back column. I know someone sent something in about my in laws. It did take a few months before it went into the paper but always worth a try http://www.southportvisiter.co.uk/ http://lookback.merseyblogs.co.uk/ |
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| ray green |
UW was a registration mark for London County Council | ||
| silverhammer |
Thank you Ray, so not from Southport...slimmer chances it's my man.
Larry |
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| Yvonne |
Don't know whether you have this information but I have been looking through Howard WW1 Military Records and came upon this.
James Howard c1881 Confectioner 16 Scaribrick Ave Southport. Next of kin Wife Elizabeth nee Arcari married 1905 Two children listed Frederick James? 1906 Irene Antonia 15 March 1911 |
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| silverhammer |
No I didn't have that info, many thanks.
Larry |
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