Carr's House, Hillside

HodgePodge · Carr's House, Hillside

OK, I know this isn't techically a North Meols question..... but does anyone know anything about Carr's House, located on what is now Dunkirk Rd?

I know that Henry Marshall had the farm in 1845, which he had obviously acquired at/after his marriage in 1841... I can't determine whether or not this is the same house he lived in with his father in 1841, which was in Hillside, but his father survived for many years after AND Henry was not the eldest, so their 1841 home may not have been Carr's.

It's unclear whether Henry is living there in 1851 (just listed as Birkdale), but he had definitely moved out by 1861 (living in Aughton's House near the Ash Tree). I do know from other research that many tenants were moving on in the 1840s, before their leases had expired, presumably Blundell's attempt to make the way clear for his planned development of Birkdale Park (did he pay tenants to move out? perhaps subletting them back?).

I know Carr's house disappeared from maps by 1893, but there's a considerable gap in dates on Old Maps which makes it impossible to establish a close appoximation of the date of removal.

One thing that is of interest is that, about 20 years ago, my Dad relaid the water mains on their property (which seems to be where Carr's House stood), and the original mains went a roundabout route under the front garden to the house, rather than directly up the path as expected... I wonder if this is because there were remaining structures belonging to the old house where the front garden was going to be. Also, we know the building work started on the street before WW1 & stopped next door to my parents' house, which was built in the 1920s.... could it be that building work ran up to some farm structure and stopped for some years before they were removed. Old maps list a well near the house, others mark a spring in the same spot... perhaps this halted work for a while. The war may have got in the way, but building didn't resume until about 10 years after its end.

My parents have a lot of old apple trees in their garden, which are almost certainly part of the original orchard attached to the farm (one or two survivors are also dotted around neighbouring gardens, but my parents' is the only significant cluster remaining).

I would love to put together a more detailed history of Carr's House.

HodgePodge

I should mention that oldmaps.co.uk has Carr's House marked in 1847, but no further maps until 1893, when the house is no longer marked.

mother

I remember my dad telling me years ago that some ancestor of ours, Aaron Carr, refused to move from his farm when the land was to be used for building. Apparently he said 'they'll have to carry me out in a wooden box' It is now Dunkirk Rd.

On our family tree the Carrs and Rymers were connected to the old cottage in Birkdale village, Ash Farm (now Bedford Rd) and the Ash Tree Inn (now the Portland Hotel)

I have an Aaron Carr descended from Richard and Mary Carr marr.1768
but not too sure if this is the same Aaron my dad spoke of.

I know someone who may have more information so I'll see what I can find out.

mother

I've just spoken to the lady in question, and apparently Aaron Carrs farm was Dunbar Road, not Dunkirk Road; my memory let me down again.
Maybe there is a connection with the Marshalls and Carrs - I have a John Carr married Ann Marshall in 1796; Dunkirk Rd & Dunbar Rd aren't too far apart.

Jane

Yesterday I was going through my Southport history books. I know I saw a photo of Carrs house. Now I have to go through the books again to find out which it was in. I shall try and post it later.

HodgePodge

This is all wonderful. Dunbar and Dunkirk back onto each other, and the old farm spanned the 2, as far as I can make out, so it's more than possible that it is the same place. The buildings themselves seem to have been on my parents' land. The Southport & Ainsdale composite 1845/modern overlayed map suggests the buildings were in what is now their back garden, but my own rough attempt at overlaying maps places them in the front garden (the water mains issue does suggest the front is a bit more likely). I've no indication that Carr's lived there in its last few years, but we must assume they did at some point.

A photo of Carr's would be fabulous. I know it's not in Harrop's "families & cottages"

I have changed my mind on Henry leaving by 1861... I thought that, as he was enumerated close to Ash Tree, he must have lived there... but the enumerator's walk in 1841 walks past Carr's and down what is now Bedford Rd to the Ash Tree, with only a couple of properties between... so I think Henry was at Carr's c1841-after 1861, he then moved to Windy Harbour Rd.

I had been a bit thrown by a relatively young man going straight from his father's home to his own farm... seemed odd for a 2nd son of a living father... but perhaps the fact that Henry married Jenny Livesey is significant, as she was from Shaw's Farm (dau of Thomas), which I think was quite well established, so perhaps the 2 families set the newly weds up with a small property... or Henry's father assisted him to lease a farm to impress the in-laws.

Jane

I have searched all my books and can't find it

Now I'm worried about my sanity because I remember seeing it.........I shall keep looking though

I could also ask in the library on Tuesday to see if they have anything. At least the files of photo's (photocopies of [the originals) are indexed

SeaCopRimmer

According to the map which goes with Harrop's book Carr's House is situated almost on the corner of Dunkirk Road and Blundell Drive - not sure if that helps?

Jane

This is the only photo I can find with any mention of Carrs - and I know its not right

Sorry

The sign read - Carr's Malt - the best brown bread. So I think it's just an advert rather than Carr's shop.

It didn't even scan properly - taken from Southport a Pictorial History by Harry Foster

mother

That looks like the corner of Kew Rd and Guildford Rd.
I've been told (don't know if this is correct) that......

hang on, I'll phone the lady who told me and get back

mother

The lady was confused, sorry. She seems to think that there was a shop in High Park with Carrs above the door

I thought it looked like across the road from the chip shop on the corner of Kew Rd and Guildford Rd; now converted to a house.

Or the corner of Kew Rd and Little Bedford Rd opposite the Portland

HodgePodge

The 2 buildings of Carr's on the Birkdale & Ainsdale composite map appear to sit between the middle of the bottom end of Dunkirk Rd and the corner of Blundell Drive. Even on this map, the lane leading to them stops in the middle of the present road outside my parents' house. Overlaying maps isn't as simple as it might seem when there are few landmarks remaining from 1845 (particularly as the railway wasn't on the early map). Also, there may be slight inaccuracies in the 1845. Comparing the 1847 with the later maps, which all show the railway with Gilbert's Crossing at the bottom of Dunkirk Rd, the buildings seem to be placed slightly further east and south, in which case, at least one of the buildings sat on our land.

By the way, I wouldn't want this to sound like a criticism of the Birkdale & Ainsdale cottages & families map, as I love it, it's been incredibly useful for getting my head round the old community... I just think that the tithe map of 1845 was a little more vague than the later OS maps and without the railway as a reference, it would be near on impossible to align them exactly. This composite shows Carr's as being so close to the point of the middle of the Richmond Rd end, I think it's more than possible that we have the actual site.

The issues around the building of ours could also indicate we have the site... the halted building next door for up to 20 years, the strange route of the water mains.

My parents hope I'm joking when I suggest a test pit for archealogical remains!

HodgePodge

Oh, I have mentioned this before, but it might be worth me doing again... I have a few pieces of Birkdale history that might be of interest to others... a page of birkdale signatures of people paying to graze their animals on Birkdale Common in 1811:

John Rimmer
Thomas Carr
Richard Aughton
Miles Blundell
Edward Johnson
Thomas Marshall
William Carr
Joseph Marshall

I also have a list of fines paid by Birkdale residents in the same approximate period (I think fines referred to fees paid, rather than a punishment of some sort)

Thomas Marshall £42
John Norris (Ainsdale) £400
Thomas Rimmer £50
James Tyrer (Margery's) £315
John Robinson £21
Richard Swift £26 5s
Jane Jump £260
Thomas Marshall £245
William Neale £280
Thomas Marshall £200
William Hodge £400 (my GGGGG uncle)
James Livesley £300
John Shaw £5
" " " " £5
Total £2549 5s
Paid to the tenants for making bricks and deducted out of their fines £110
Paid to John Norris, 2 Guineas for each of the above agreements "29 8s
total £2409 17s

I also have William Hodge's lease for the farm at Alma Rd/Liverpool Rd of 1807 listing William and his sons Peter 22, Robert 18 & Richard 8 at 8 Guineas annual rent. This notes that the lease expired on Richard's death in Nov 1869, confirming that this is the father of Charles Hodge, Coxwain of the Eliza Fernley.. and that Charles was not from another branch, as thought by all other local historians (including Bulpit)
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mother

Searching through my notes, I realise that Aaron Carr farmed at Common End Farm, which was where the junction of Dunbar Rd and Arundel Rd is today. Unfortunately I found no clues on Carr House.

HodgePodge

Oh, well... thanks for trying

Bez

Jane

I did ask in the library today about any photo's they may have. They had Carrs Farm - but this was on Carr Lane so it didn't seem to be the right place.

HodgePodge

Thank you for that, Jane... this place is proving more elusive than I thought.

I realise now that the 1861 retrun for Henry Marshall lists him at Aughton's House, a couple of properties from those clustered around the Ash Tree... the thing is, looking at the possible enumerator's walk... this could feasibly be Carr's.... as there are only 2 or 3 on the 1845 map in a straight line between Carr's & the Ash Tree... was he at a different farm (bearing in mind he had definitely moved to Windy Harbour Rd area by 1871)... or did Carr's go by other names in this period?

I've emailed the Birkdale & Ainsdale soc with no joy... I was hoping the research behind "families & cottages" might've thrown up a few other sites that didn't make it into the book.

mother

Our Carr family had the Ash Tree farm from 1841 census through to the 1881 census.
This was Ash Tree lane, Birkdale Common, which is now Bedford Rd. Birkdale.

Could your Marshall have been a labourer in a farm cottage?

Dotty · Confused

Hi y'all. I'm a bit confused with Carr the surname, Carr the farm and Carr the house.

These days Carr Lane is at a crossroads and the road straight on is Windy Harbour Road which could mean something to someone...just a thought!

Dotty

Bez

Carr was my ex-husband's surname. It is a derivative of Kerr and apparently means "dweller by the marsh".

I am NOT going to tell you what a former work colleague used to call me.

PS. Don't forget the other Carr House where the toll bar used to be on the way to Preston. That was where Jeremiah Horrocks observed the Transit of Venus in 1639.

Dotty · Errr...

Mrs Kerr???

Bez · Re: Errr...

Dotty · Bah...

Has anyone told you that you are a tease Bez?

Bez

Not since I was 18 and it wasn't exactly a complimentary phrase which was used.

Carr's House, Hillside

Confused

Errr...

Re: Errr...

Bah...