liza99
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Ellen Ball of CrossensHello everybody
I've done a fair amount of family history over the past couple of years but this is the first time I can't get going with something, and it's the North Meols area.
I sent off for the marriage certificate for my friend's paternal grandparents with the idea of presenting her with lots of ancestor details as a Christmas present, as she is very interested in finding out about her family in the Southport area. So I really hope someone can help me with this.
Info from the certificate is as follows:-
Marriage at St John's Church, Crossens April 18, 1925.
Edwin Sykes, 23, bachelor, labourer, 27 Broom Road Birkdale, father Arthur Sykes, pig dealer
Ellen Ball, 19, spinster, 14 Land Lane Crossens, father James Ball, labourer
Witnesses Thomas Sharrock & Mary Alice Howard
The trouble is there are too many Ellen Balls and James Balls. She could be the daughter of a James who is on 1901 census with a family already, or a James Ball who marries between 1901 & 1906. I thought Ellen's mother might be a Howard but there are lots of Howards as well.
Can you help me identify each of Ellen's parents on the later censuses? I can hopefully carry on myself from there.
Best wishes
Liza
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Germaine
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Hi Liza  sorry can't help you with your quest.
Hope I am not telling you what you already know.
I would think the best thing to do is get Ellens birth cert. There is only one born in Ormskirk in 1906 Ball Ellen Ann Ormskirk 8b 882 but 2 in 1905.
Have you got her dob or do you know when she died as that should give you the year she was born in. (unless she lied somewhere along the line)
Her birth cert would give her mother and an address so then you should be able to find them in the 1901 census.
I am not on ancestry at the moment so can't go hunting but have you thought about looking for the wit. at her marriage maybe that will give a hint to the place they were at.
Good Luck
Germaine
x
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Jane
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First welcome to the forum. I hope you get the help you need. You never know it may help with your own research in this area too.
Ball is one of those surnames that is so prolific (big word for a Saturday morning!). And why do they always give their children the same first name? They could at least be kind and add a middle one
And after the 1901 census - although there will be many Ellen ball's on that.
I can only think you will have to spend out for a birth certificate. If you state the Father's name (which you know from the marriage certificate) that may narrow it down.
Hope someone has something more useful to add.
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Jane
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Had another idea while cleaning.......
I have no idea where you live but if you can get into Southport Reference library you could check the directories & electoral registers.
Start by checking the address on the marriage certificate and see if the family stay there until the late 1920's. Then the electoral register will tell you other names at that address - hopefully including the Mother's first name. That may help find the parent's marriage.
You might find something on death/funeral notices but of course deaths are a little harder to find.
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baxtersp
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Hello Liza
Here's their gravestone.
As they died after 1969 their death entry on the Civil Registration Death Index also records their birth dates.
Ellen born 6th June 1905
Edwin born 19th July 1901
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liza99
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Ellen Ball of CrossensHi Germaine & Jane
Thank you very much for your replies and suggestions.
I know nothing more than what is on the marriage cert. My friend does not know anything about her paternal grandparents and her father died a while ago so there is nobody to ask. She just had the name Edwin Sykes and I found the rest myself via BMD on the ancestry site.
I looked up the witnesses on 1901 census. There are quite a few Mary Alice Howards, also some born between 1901 & 1906 who would be old enough by 1925. Pity witnesses do not give their ages!
I'll send off for the birth cert. if all else fails, but I'm keen to avoid extra expense where possible. I actually live in Southport so will check out the reference library as you suggest, Jane. I wasn't sure what they might have beyond census & BMD info. that could be of help to me. I have some spare time on Tuesday so will let you know if I find anything out.
In the meantime, all other info & suggestions welcome!
Regards
Liza
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liza99
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Ellen Ball of CrossensHi Baxtersp
Just seen your message which you sent as I was typing in my reply to Germaine & Jane.
This is great! I've printed it out and I'm sure my friend, who lives in Formby, will want to visit the grave.
The birthdates will enable me to get the right certificates if I have to send off for them.
If you got this image from the churchyard itself then many thanks for taking the time. If it's from a website could you give me its address - there may be other useful info to find.
Many thanks
Liza
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Jane
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Steve is wonderful. he always finds these graves.
If you are in the library on Tuesday morning about 10.30 then you will see me & Seacop. Our usual day in there. Just ask at the desk and they will point you in our direction :grin:
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baxtersp
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You're welcome Liza
I took the photo myself. I've photographed quite a lot of gravestones at some of the local churchyards: St John's (Crossens), St Stephen's (Banks), St Cuthbert's (Churchtown) and Becconsall Old Church (Formerly All Saints, Hesketh Bank). I plan to make a start on St Mary's in Tarleton next time we get a good spell of weather.
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Germaine
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That is great that Steve had the grave in his files. What a good find.
Hope you find something useful at the library.
Germanie
x :grin:
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Dotty
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GreetingsHello and welcome to our website and forum 
What a lovely way to join the forum. I'm glad that our registered users and society members have been able to help you find your friends family.
Sometimes it takes a little longer...but we always try our best. Do visit the library, if only to check out jane and seacop!
Our monthly meeting is this coming Thursday (check out the website) it would be nice to see you there.
Regards
Dotty 
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liza99
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Ellen Ball of CrossensThank you all for your replies, and it is nice to be made so welcome.
I am originally from Keighley in West Yorkshire and my partner is from Stafford. So far none of our own ancestors come from the Southport area, the nearest being some Bambers on my partner's side who lived in the St Michaels on Wyre area. So it's just my friend's family I am looking for.
I have half an hour 10.30 to 11 on Tuesday morning, Jane, time to say 'hello' and have a lesson on using the microfiche reader! Then an hour from 1 to 2pm between other tasks.
I have seen somewhere that the library has the Southport Visitor on microfiche. I am thinking that I could look up the marriage notices and obituaries for Ellen and Edwin which will hopefully give me other names.
Presumably the directories and electoral registers are also on microfiche. If I need to book the reader in advance could someone please let me know.
Thanks again for your help.
Liza
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SeaCopRimmer
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Hi
Jane and I will be in the Library from approx. 10.30 for about an hour and I will be back in from approx. 1.15 (whilst J's at the hairdresser's) for about another hour so we could meet up one or both times?
The Street Directories and Electoral Registers are in book form and it might be worth booking a fiche reader, just in case (although I've not seen them all being used at the same time for quite a while). I would recommend booking the film reader (with the printer) for looking through the Southport Visiter though 
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Jane
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So we shall meet on Tuesday.
None of my family are from this area either. I'm from Lincoln but ancestors from Yorkshire, Staffordshire, Shropshire, Nottingham.....all over the place. My husband's lot are local though. but I found the society helpful in lots of ways and the talks are not always strictly to do with researching local family.
see you on Tuesday
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Sandyken
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I have just checked the 1924/5 Seed's Directory (I have a copy on CD)
Arthur Sykes (pig dealer) lived at 29 Broome Street. The witness Thomas Sharrock lived at 27 Broome Street. Looks as though Edwin lived with Thomas at time of marriage! James Ball still lived at 14 Land Lane. No sign of a Edwin Sykes or Ellen, they must have been lodgers at this time or lived out of Southport.
Just on an off chance I tried Mary Alice Howard, none listed but if she was a friend or relation of Ellen she may have lived close by.There were three Howard's listed in Land Lane.
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Yvonne
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Looks like Thomas Sharrock, one of the witnesses married Sarah Sykes in 1921.
Is this the same man do you think? No deaths for a Mary of suitable age that died Ormskirk district. But then again cannot find a marriage of Sykes to an Esther, and looking at the below I wonder whether Arthur and Esther were married, surely if they were married it would read Bragg-Sykes  .
1891 Living - 114 Boundary St.
Emily Sykes 1
George Sykes 9
Mary Sykes 33 born Shropshire
William A Sykes 33, Bird Dealer, born Leeds,
1901
Arthur Sykes 43 Pig Dealer & cattle, born Yorkshire
Arthur Sykes 8
Emily Sykes 11
Esther Sykes 40 Born Staffordshire
Sarah A Sykes 9 months .
Births Sept 1900
Sykes-Bragg Sarah Ann Ormskirk 8b 858
Births Mar 1902
Sykes-Bragg Edwin Ormskirk 8b 877
Births Sep 1903
Sykes-Bragg Mary Ellen Ormskirk 8b 892
Update - just found this so it looks like Mary and Esther were the same person, unless they were sisters 
Births Jun 1890
Bragg Emily Sykes Ormskirk 8b 779
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liza99
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Hi Sandyken & Yvonne
Thank you so much for your replies which I have only just seen. I keep reading them over and over. It seems terribly confusing.
Perhaps Edwin lived with Arthur at time of marriage and the 29 was misread as 27. Would that be more logical?
I had seen the 1891 & 1901 censuses & concluded that the Arthur 'pig dealer' & William A. 'bird dealer' must be the same person, but wasn't sure about the Esther & Mary. I also found:-
1881 census CP North Meols
William Sykes 24 green grocer born Leeds
Mary Sykes 25 born Shropshire
lodgers at 45 Lorne St. with William Jackson & family
Doesn't help much except to show Mary born consistently in Shropshire, and Arthur, presumably William Arthur, in Leeds.
I haven't been able to find a death for Mary or marriage for Esther to Arthur either. With a young family I wouldn't have thought he'd have time to go far afield to find a new wife!
So Esther is really Mary Esther Bragg then. Or Esther Mary Bragg. Or they were sisters. Nothing easy is there!
My friend mentioned the name Sykes-Bragg some time ago. She'd found a piece of paper of her father's where he'd referred to himself as James Sykes-Bragg and she was mystified. Her father was James Alfred Sykes, born 16/11/1929 (1930(JFM ) Ormskirk). If it's any help she had an address 253 Lytham Road Marshside where she thought he lived before his marriage in 1953(JFM).
I 've just checked births! I put in Bragg looking for Mary/Esther in Shropshire & got...
Bragg, William Arthur Sykes 1857(AMJ) Hunslet Yorkshire(West Riding) 9b
243
Hunslet is part of the Leeds area.
So the Bragg appears to be connected to Arthur not his wife! What on earth is going on here?
Got to go now - very late. Have to digest this overnight in order to know what to look for tomorrow at the library.
Thanks again for the info
Liza
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liza99
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Marriage 1896(AMJ) Ormskirk 8b 1206
William Arthur S. Bragg & Esther Bradbury!
There appears to be an earlier marriage as well
1893 (JAS) Ormskirk
William Arthur S. Bragg
others on page
Mary Jane Heaton, Annie Eliza Marshall, Clara Rimmer, Charles Docker(might be Cocker), can't read my writing & I've logged out of ancestry.
Liza
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Yvonne
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Found her at last
Deaths Jun 1892
Bragg Mary Sykes 34 Ormskirk 8b 526
So, William/Arthur remarried Annie Eliza and then Esther
Just found
Deaths Jun 1894
Bragg Annie Eliza S 24 Ormskirk 8b 490
So Annie Eliza fits in with Annie Eliza Marshall who he married in 1893
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Dotty
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Well...I'm exhausted reading back at these posts. I'm so glad you've managed to sort it all out now...
Dotty 
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liza99
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Not sorted it all out quite yet Dotty! But that part of it, anyway - thanks very much for the info Yvonne.
It was good to say hello to Seacop & Jane at the library today. I visit the library every Tuesday morning so no doubt we'll meet again.
I can now make headway with the Sykes side of the family, but still need to get a toehold on the censuses with Ellen Ball's parents. I had some success with the electoral rolls at the library:-
1924 - 14 Land Lane, James Ball & Betty Ball
BMD has marriage 1903(JAS) James Ball & Betty Howard 8b 1377
There are other James Ball marriages 1903/4 with possible spouses Betty or Elizabeth, but I also found
1951 - 14 Land Lane, Betty Ball & Irene Howard
This, coupled with the witness to Ellen & Edwin's marriage, Mary Alice Howard, seems strongly to suggest that Betty Howard was James wife.
I still have the problem of finding James & Betty's respective parents. I tried looking at the Southport Visitor for Edwin & Ellen's wedding announcement but without success. Seacop reckoned only the more well-off would put it in the paper.
1902 electoral roll had a William Davies living at 14 Land Lane, so no joy there.
Any further suggestions welcome.
Thanks again for everybody's help.
Liza
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