George Howard

clubbyr8 · George Howard

I'm looking for information on my Great Grandfather George Howard.

He was born around 1860 in Southport.
Was still alive in 1936 and living at 88 Linekar Street.
Married Mary Jane Rimmer (born around 1859 in North Meols) on 17th April 1882 at Congregational Chapel, Portland Street.
Father was Thomas Howard, Mother unknown.
Was a policeman in the local force and retired as a Detective Inspector.
One of his sons Norman Howard was killed in WW1 and awarded the MM.
Unable to locate him in the 1881 (or before) census but is there for 1891 and 1901.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Bob

Germaine

I have only had a quick look and have to go off now. Maybe someone can double check this for me.
I wonder if if he made his fathers name up and his mother hadn't married his father. I have come across that sort of thing.
I have found this George Howard born 1860.
Mother Ruth in 1861 she was unmarried and an Inn keeper,
she married a John Ormesher in 1868, George is with them in 1871 in 1881 she is a widow and George a grocers assistant.
Only thing is his place of birth is given as either Orsmirk or Lathom but on 1891 it is Marshside.
Let us know what you think.
Germaine
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Germaine

I might be completey wrong on that one. Had a quick look about. From what I can see Ruth was a widow thought it was a U now think it was a W.
Found this.
Baptism: 18 Nov 1860 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
George Howard - Son of Charles Howard & Ruth
Abode: Ormskirk
Occupation: Hairdresser
Baptised by: H W Jones - Curate
Register: Baptisms 1855 - 1877, Page 135, Entry 1080
Source: LDS Film No. 1849664

Also found a Charles Howards death in first quarter of 1861.
So may not be right after all.
Sorry

Germaine
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clubbyr8

Germaine,

Thanks for the response. I too went down this track but George's marriage certificate definately says his father is Thomas so I'm not sure Ruth is his mother.

Maybe George is his middle name but either way he is proving pretty elusive to find.

Bob

Germaine

Hi Bob well had another look this morning he certainly is elusive.
Just a thought maybe his mother wasn't married when he was born and he was using a different name on earlier census.
I had this with my G Grandfather he was a Meadows but from being born until he married used his step fathers name Ball.
It was only by luck that I was told he had a connection with the Ball family that I found him . Though on his marriage he didn't name a father at all.
Never have found out who his father was.
No I don't think that Ruth is his mother as in 1891 I found Ruth with her son George so that one can be ruled out.
I think you are right there is another name somewhere by the looks of it.
Good Luck if I think of anything will come back.
Germai

ne
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Oh I don't know if it is anything relevant but in 1881 there is a Mary Rimmer mother Jenny Howard . Is this your Mary I wonder if George was related to Jenny's husband and that is how they met.

Jane

A real mystery man. I can only add a few points that may help

Have you tried the marriage witnesses? They sometimes help. They are often relatives

Do you know when he died? There are often some really good funeral reports in local papers which give away family information or names of family members. Knowing who a brother or sister was may lead back to a census that way

Oh and welcome to the forum :grin:

Germaine

Jane has some good points there.
I was looking for a George Sumner for 4 years in one census. Tunred out his father was at sea and he was put down under his half sisters surname and that was mistranscribed.
He must be somehwere hope you strike lucky.
Germaine
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clubbyr8

Hi Jane and Germaine,

Thanks for the responses.
The witnesses on the marriage certificate were both Rimmers.
I don't know when he died. All I know is he was still alive in 1936.
Are there any Southport paper archives on line? I live in Australia and I don't think the local libraries here would carry that information.
Mary's mothers name is Jenny, I looked at that census listing before but got sidetracked. I think I'll look at that again. Thanks Germaine.

Bob

Yvonne

Not found anything usefull regarding George's parents, but have a look here
http://www.lancashire.gov.uk/educ...ecords/police_detail.asp?id=32696

Could well be him and may give some interesting info re his life in the police force, think I read it costs about £10.

Germaine

Good find Yvonne.
I wonder if this is of any interest.
If it is welcome to the family . Oh and these Meadows are not the easiest famly to keep track of. Talk about scandal

Germaine
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Name: George MEADOW
Father: Thomas MEADOW HOWARD b: in North Meols, Lancashire, England c: 4 MAR 1816 in St. Cuthberts, North Meols, Lancashire, England
Mother: Ellen

chr 1816 Mar 4 Thomas Meadow Howard, illegimate son Thomas Meadow & Ellen Howard church town weaver

Thomas Meadows and family North Meols Census 7th April 1861 District 5, page 19
North Meols, Marshside
95 Bank End Thomas Meadows Head Married male 45 Agricultural labourer Lancashire, North Meols
Ellen Meadows wife married female 42 Lancashire, North Meols
Elizabeth Meadows Daughter unmarried 24 Silk Weaver Lancashire, North Meols
Alice Meadows daughter unmarried 18 Silk Weaver Lancashire, North Meols
Hugh Meadows Son unmarried male 16 Agricultural labourer Lancashire, North Meols
Margery Meadows daughter unmarried female 12 Scholar Lancashire, North Meols
Thomas Meadows Son male 10 Scholar Lancashire, North Meols
Richard Meadows son male 6 scholar Lancashire, North Meols
Margaret Daughter female 4 scholar Lancashire, North Meols
George Meadows son male 2 Lancashire, North Meols

http://worldconnect.rootsweb.ance...?op=GET&db=park&id=I13078

Jane

Sandyken · Police in Southport

I have tried to look up the name George Howard in the records I have of the Southport County Borough Police Force (1870-1969) but there is no reference to that name. Unfortunately the old records for the Force were thrown away in 1969 when we amalgamated with Lancashire Constabulary. A further complication is that Birkdale was policed by Lancashire up to 1912 when it became part of Southport.
The Lancashire Records office do have some limited records of the Lancashire Force.

Germaine

This looks like Gorges death.

1937 quarter 1 (jan/feb/march)

George Howard age 77 Southport vol 8b page 1213

Germaine
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Yvonne

I was sent some info about a relly who was in the Police in Manchester. Lancs RO had info on him eg
joined 1874 -1883,
it gave
his status on joining
height
age
complextion
hair colour,
eye colour
previous job
where born
wife's name

If he married after he joined the police it may give his parents

Germaine

Good idea to get in touch with the Lancs record office .
I would certaily email them they are very helpful.
Especailly if you get info like that.

I don't know if you have seen this one Bob, I know the dob is out but you know hwat they were like.
1881
George Howard abt 1855 North Meols, Lancashire, England Boarder North Meols, Lancashire address Marshside.
Germaine
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Dotty · Yikes...

Well, I have a weekend off and come back to a whole life history...

I sounds like we have a real mystery with this gent. You'd think that as he died so recently he would be easier to find...just goes to show that what mother says is right "They hide, we seek".

Good hunting,

Dotty

Yvonne

Don't know whether you are on Genes Reunited but there is a Robert Howard with a tree who has a George Howard 1860 born Southport.
It says I have had previous contact with him but I can't see where

Germaine

OK are you sitting comfortably then I 'll begin

I have a theory may be completely wrong anyone any idea's on it.
In 1816 Ellen Howard has Thomas to Thomas Meadows (Thomas Meadows Howard)

Baptism: 4 Mar 1816 St Cuthbert, North Meols, Lancashire, England
Thomas Meadow Howard Meadows - Illegitimate Son of Thomas Meadows & Ellen Howard Abode: Church Town Occupation: Weaver

In 1837 Thomas Howard married Ellen Aughton.
17 Jan 1837 Thomas Howard (weaver) & Ellen Aughton (spinster)
both of this parish wit: Henry Meadows, W Rushton (notice the Meadows are about ).
In 1841 census I can't find a Thoams Howard married to a Ellen. But there is a Thomas Meadows.
Living Green Lane Thomas is a silk weaver
Thomas Meadows 25
Ellen Meadows 20
Betty Meadows 4
John Meadows 1
I found two births.
BETTY MEADOWS - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 24 MAR 1837 Church Town Independent, North Meols, Lancashire, England
Father Thomas Meadows
Mother Helen Hauhghton

John HOWARD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 16 OCT 1839 North Meols, Lancashire, England
father: Thomas HOWARD
Mother: Ellen AUGHTON.

If you look at the census the Meadows are around till 1871 then they go and from what I have found up to now the Howards appear.
I think that Thomas used the name Meadows as that was what he was brought up as but he also used the name Howard which is what he was Christened as.
So I think when he died the children all used the name Howard which is probably on their birth certs.

If I find anyting else I will post it.
Hope everyone can understand what I have.

Germaine
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clubbyr8

clubbyr8

clubbyr8

Germaine

Yes that is the one Bob.
Wonder when he joined the police force hopefully LRO will have his records that may help
Germaine
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clubbyr8

This is a copy of a post from the Southport GB forum where I asked about a War Memorial in Southport. People went out of their way to help me, posting pictures of the memorial and one lady (Mrs Wright) posted this.

This is copied from the Roll of Honour situated in the Reference Library Southport. Thanks are due to Andrew Farthing for his help.
---------------------------------------

HOWARD, NORMAN
332783 Lance Corporal M.M.
King's Liverpool Regiment

Born, lived and enlisted: Southport.
Killed in action F&F 20-9-1917

Commemorated on the Tyne Cot Memorial, Belgium.
Information from the Southport Visiter
13-10-1917. Page 8, Column 3 (photo):

Lance Corporal Howard was the son of Ex-Detective Inspector and Mrs. G. Howard, of 88 Linaker St. Southport. He joined the Army in November 1914 and went to France the following July. He was previously wounded in July 1916, and after being in hospital in Southampton, returned to France in January 1917. The deceased soldier was awarded the Military Medal for conspicuous gallantry not long before his death. He was 21 years of age and prior to joining up was serving his time as a plasterer. The sad news of his death was conveyed in the following letter: 'Having been a pal of your son Norman, I think it my duty to write you a few lines, in which I express my deep sympathy, and not only mine but the sympathy of the platoon in the loss of your son. He was a fine chap, and loved by us all, and we realised when we lost him that we had lost one of our best. I hope you will console yourself in the knowledge that he died a noble death. In closing I again express my deepest sympathy.' Lance Corporal Howard was a former member of the Portland Street Congregational Sunday School.

So by 1917, George had all ready retired from the Police force (not sure of the exact date). Seems a bit young to retire!!

Bob

Jane

You have certainly been working on this for a while if it was Andrew Farthing who helped. He is no longer in Southport library. I too post on SGB and there are certainly some very helpful people n there.

I assume you are not a member of our society? If you were you could place a help wanted in the magazine. I do free research for our member in the local library too.

There are certainly lots of very helpful folk on this forum too. Amazing how we like a mystery and do our best to find something to help.

Do you think the death mentioned is the right one?

Yvonne

Lol, Bob, didn't make the connection as I couldnt find you on my contact list

I think being a policeman in those days was very hard. My relly died at an early age. Out in all weathers, no cars to keep them warm

I assume you have this
http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=463250

http://www.cwgc.org/search/certificate.aspx?casualty=463250

clubbyr8

Jane,

The original post on the SGB was in 2002, so it's been a while since I've looked at this.
I'm thinking about joining your society.
As far as the death that Germaine posted, I honestly don't know. It looks right. His age at death ties in with his age on the marriage certificate and the 1891 and 1901 census. It doesn't tie in with what Germaine found in the 1881 census.

What information is on an English Death Certificate? Here in NSW they list the parents name, marriages, children, medical, place of birth, occupation, place of residence, period of residence in Australia, date and place of burial/cremation.

clubbyr8

Germaine

Hi Bob the death certs over here don't list names of parents.
The nearest I have to that date gave.
name, where they died, informant, cause of death,occupation and place of death. Think it also gave their address.
It could be his age was given wrong in the 1881 census you know they did often get them wrong. Could be any reason date misheard etc. 1855 instead of 1859. Will have another look tomorrow see if there were any others later that could be him.
Good idea joining the sociey.
You know if I have got the right family then your Thomas Howard is in my tree shame I hadn't gone any further with him I have stopped at Thomas and Ellen Howards marriage. I thought the name looked familiar when I saw your post.
Germaine
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clubbyr8

Hi Germaine,

I like the way the data is collated here in NSW. Even with the online search for NSW BDM's, you get parent information so at least you have a reasonable chance of being right before you order a certificate.

With the GRO index reference you listed is there any way to get any further information to verify that is the right person or do you have to order the certificate and hope it is the right one?

Again, thanks for your help.

Jane

Not the same here sadly.

Death certificates - well the information on them is only as good as given by the informant. So sometimes the age is out. And without ordering the certificate there is no way of knowing it is the right one. Even then unless the informant is a relative then you may not be sure.

Obviously so much easier with rarer names but in this area Howard is one of those more common surnames.

That is why I mentioned funeral/death reports in the local papers. They are particularly good between about 1910 and the 1960's. I just wish they were the same in other places - like where my ancestors came from.

And I don't know about anyone else but a lot of my ancestors haven't been 'killed' off. I have a 3xgreat Grandfather still around somewhere. Have searched for many hours and never found his death in the indexes. He was born in 1837 so a very old man now

Germaine

Oh I wish it was like that here Bob wold save us some money.
Like Jane sid not so easy.
It is the other way round with me Jane. I think my Grandfather was the immaculate conception can't find him or who he said he was his father anywhere. An Irish family living in Liverpool

Mum swore he grew up there but!!!. Roll on the 1911 census hopefully he told the truth on it and there will be a clue.
Oh talking of that I got the news mail for that will find a thread to put it on.
Germaine
x

Yvonne

Looks like Peter (son of George and Mary) only lasted a year in the Army before being medically discharged.
Cannot find Service records but he is on Ancestry in the WW1 pensions sector.
No 32449
deffo him as it gives his father George at 88 Linaker St.

(not 5 Byran/Byrom St one - he's one of my relly's)

Jane

Good news for clubbyr8. The death Germaine found was the correct one and I found a superb funeral write up in the Visiter today. I shall be in touch to Bob with the full thing later :grin:

Yvonne

That's great Jane, do you think Bob will be able to get further back now?

Jane

Not sure. It mentions children, that he was a native of Southport (lovely phrases they had :grin: ) and his police career dates. he was a private detective after retiring from the police.

While searching for that I found a few things that might make good articles for the society magazine too.

Yvonne

Look forward to reading them

Germaine

Great stuff Jane. A private detective after he retired oh we could do with him here to sort out his family.

I hope there are some clues in the oribtuary.
Oh I have been busy on here too.
I really do think my theory is right.
Too complicated to write down right now.
But it boils down to although the family was using the name Meadows in census, later on they did change to Howard and oh dear found one of them marrying another Meadows. Will have to work out what relation they were to each other. I don't have that marriage cert itself but someone sent me the details off it Betty Howard married James Meadows in 1864 her father Thomas a lab. James Meadows was my GG Grandmothers brother now there is another mystery.

. I am going to double check with the lady that sent me the details see if she has any further info on Betty see if I am right.
Germaine
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clubbyr8

Sensational, ladies, sensational. I don't know what to say!!

Sounds like there were quite a few at the funeral. It's interesting to note that the bearers were all old colleagues from the police force yet Ken can't find any record of him being in the force.

I notice my Granddad (Peter) is listed as being there but my Dad (Norman) is not, maybe he was in the RAF by then.

He is listed as being buried in Duke Cemetery. Is that still there? Are there any MI for that cemetery?

I also notice there is no mention of his wife Mary. Do you think that would mean she had all ready passed away, as I don't don't know when she died either?

I'll also have to start looking at the Rimmer side but I gather that's like being related to a "Smith".

Again thank you all for your help.

Yvonne

Duke Street Cemetery is still being used.
The Southport Crematorium holds the information about graves at Duke St.

Good luck with Rimmer's

Jane

We have a separate section on the forum for Rimmers - common as anything round here :grin:

I haven't found one in my husband's family though and I do keep looking

Um no mention of George's wife in the death notice or funeral report. It doesn't even say he was a widower? But chief mourners are his sons so I guess his wife had already died.

If you find the grave you may find her. Any headstone may mention death dates etc.

I have just read floral tributes - Old Smoke Room Pals at the Volunteer Arms. That pub is still there.

From the staff at The Scarisbrick Hotel. Another place still around. I had my wedding bash there.

Like you say bob very well attended by the police. But I think Sandy Ken explained how some records from Lancashire were lost in the re-organisation of the boundary.

Bez

Southport Crematorium will be able to provide a grave location and say whether or not there is a headstone BUT what they do not have any record of is the inscription on the grave. That would require someone getting the grave location and going to find the grave in Duke Street to see what it said.

Having said that, the Crem staff can be remarkably helpful if you ask the right questions. They will tell you who else is in the grave and when they were buried. They will also tell you the purchase date of the grave and the name and address of the owner - but you need to ask - they don't often volunteer the information, it depends on who answers the phone.

clubbyr8

Germaine

That is lovely what Jane has found.

Hope you find out more and good luck with the Rimmers.

Germaine
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Jane

You may find he got discharged for something not very serious - and may even have managed to get back in

I had a great uncle who was discharged as medically unfit a few weeks after joining up. 2 years later he died of a urinary infection in France. He was obviously allowed to enrol once more when the country needed more men to fight because of the numbers being killed

admin

before anyone asks - some of the posts have been moved NOT deleted. They now have a space of their own under the help section.

clubbyr8

Jane

He was determined to do his bit though. Munitions work was very dangerous.

Germaine

Hi Bob thought you might find this interesting
Churchtown Congregational Church.
Marriage.
Nov. 29th 1880
John Howard (41) & Jenny Rimmer (44) both Marshside.

From one of the many books you can get from the society of Parish reg.

Germaine
x

I am wondering Again

could this John be Georges older brother ages are right if my theory is right. Is this how Mary met George?
Glad you are finding some good info on your family.

clubbyr8

Hmm George's sister in law becomes George's mother in law after he marries Mary. I see a skeleton or two!!!!

Oh, and thanks Germaine for the marriage info on Jenny.

Germaine

I tell you that family had a few skeletons in the cupboard well the Meadows side did,
All good fun least they weren't boring,
Germaine
x :grin:

clubbyr8

Germaine

Your welcome Bob.
I have written it on my tribal pages tree will pm you.
Germaine
x

clubbyr8

Hi Germaine,

Just tried to get a bit further with this but I can't find any listing in the 1871 census. Do you have that information?

Also I just re-read the obit for George Howard that Jane sent me and one of the principal mourners is a Mr J. Meadows.

One of the people that sent a floral tribute was "Brother Tom's family". In the 1861 census there is a brother Thomas Meadows born c1855.

Germaine

Hi Bob I think I found some of the family as Howards.
Margery With her parents up to 1861. In 1871 she looks to be with John Hosker and a child Thomas 6 (on census as nephew later census son). They marry in Sep. 1871. Howard Margery Ormskirk 8b 1052 Hosker John Ormskirk 8b 1052 1881 28 M
If you check the 1901 census it looks like her sister Betty is with her. this caused a lot of confusion with Betty being also liisted though wrong details with her husband James in 1901.
There is a marriage for a John Howard of the right age to a Jenny Rimmer in 1880 and with other bits of info looks good.
Rimmer Jenny Ormskirk 8b 1208
Seddon Christopher Ormskirk 8b 1208
Jenny was previously maried to a Peter Rimmer and her maiden name was Brookfield
Brookfield Jennet Ormskirk 8b 788 Rimmer Peter Ormskirk 8b 788
Betty Howard married James Meadows in 1865
Howard Betty Ormskirk 8b 891 Meadow James Ormskirk 8b 891
there is a Hugh Howard as a witness on this marriage
I would think that the J Meadows listed as a mourner could well be one of his sons he had a James and a John.
You have of course George.
Margaret 1871 is with James and Betty Meadows
I haven't placed any of the others as to as to be sure I would have to get many certificates. Nothing stands out on the census upto now.
Alice is proving difficult to find in census after 1861. There is a marriage but I am not sure at all about it. Marriage: 18 May 1868 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England Thomas Farrington - (X), full Labourer Bachelor of Scarisbrick Alice Howard - (X), full Spinster of Scarisbrick Groom`s Father: James Farrington, Woodman Bride`s Father: Thomas Howard, Labourer Witness: John Farrington; Jas Dixon
Germaine
x

I think Thomas died between the 1861 census and the 1871 thus the chidlren all going now by the name Howard. I found this but don't know if it is him not enough info haven't checked the address yet thoguh,
Burial: 3 Sep 1861 St Cuthbert, North Meols, Lancashire, England
Thomas Howard -
Age: 48 years
Abode: Park Lane
Buried by: N.S.Jeffrey Curate
Register: Burials 1846 - 1867, Page 145, Entry 1150
Source: LDS Film 1796146

clubbyr8

Thanks Germaine, will look at it when I can.

Would you like to send some of your cold weather over here???? Nearly every day for the past 2 weeks has been over 40 C and the bush fires have started, unfortunately some of them deliberately lit

Germaine

I believe it is rather hot over there hope it cools down for you. No snow round here but the kids went to Knowsley Sarai Park today said it was snowy there.
Germaine

Bez

Germaine

Oh great, so there we are, another connection.

Germaine
x

clubbyr8

OK I've had another look at what Germaine is suggesting and this is what I've come up with.
George Howard's Grandmother was Ellen Howard.
Mary Jane Rimmer's Grandmother was Mary Howard. They were sisters!! Their parents were Hugh Howard and Elizabeth Rymer. This would make George and Mary second cousins (I think).
Would the marriage have been legal?

Germaine

Yes think the marriage would be legal I have come across a few first cousins marrying too .

Germaine
x

BrianG

clubbyr8

Germaine, while I was looking at the info that Yvonne and you posted from the Mary Rimmer thread, I found this on the same page as John and Mary Howard..

1871 Census

Name Age
Thomas Meadow 55
Ellen Meadow 51
Margery Meadow 21
Thomas Meadow 18
Richard Meadow 16
George Meadow 11

The Howard's and the Meadow's were neighbours.

Germaine

Ah so they are and this is the same family that George was with in 1881 I really they they are all the same gang don't you.
Also think they are the same family that are in the grave Yvonne posted. it is just in 1881 he (John) says widower when he had just got married and not with his wife and then there was the one I found in another town.
That puts the doubt on it.
Didn't make life easy did they.

Germaine
x

George Howard

Police in Southport

Yikes...