| Archive for nmfhssouthport.myfreeforum.org North Meols (Southport) Family History Society |
| Barbara Ball |
John Ball 1848, his father, Robert Baxter.Hello, I'm new to this forum and hope someone can help. Does anyone have any information on John Ball, born North Meols in 1848 or his father Robert Baxter, whose name is on John's masrriage certificate?Thanks in advance Barbara |
| SeaCopRimmer |
Welcome to the Forum - not sure that I can help, but somebody will come along soon and might have an answer for you 
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| baxtersp |
Was John from Banks?
I've got a John Ball about the right age (probably the son of Ellen Ball, spinster) who's with his grandparents John and Jane Ball on Sugarstick Lane in Banks on the 1861 and 1871 Census. From North Meols Census 30th March 1851, District 1i, Page 24, Schedule no. 83 Sugarstick, Banks John Ball Head Mar 64 Farmer of 36 acres born North Meols Jane Ball Wife Mar 58 Ellen Ball Dau Unm 35 House Labourer John Ball Son Unm 25 Agricultural Labourer Margaret Ball Dau Unm 19 House Labourer Tabathy Ball Dau Unm 16 House Labourer Robert Ball Grand Son Unm 12 Scholar John Ball Grand Son 3 William Leadbeter Grand Son 10 Scholar From North Meols Census 7th April 1861, District 2, Page 14, Schedule no. 74 Sugar Stick Lane, Banks John Ball Head Mar 74 Farmer 36 acres employing 2 men born North Meols Jane Ball Wife Mar 67 Farmer's Wife Ellen Ball Dau Unm 45 Farmer's Daughter John Ball Son Unm 35 Farmer's Son John Ball G/Son Unm 13 Scholar James Ball G/Son 8 Scholar Jane Leadbetter G/Dau 4 Scholar Jane Leadbetter Serv 16 House Servant NB James (8) and John (13) seem to be sons of Ellen Ball, presumably base born as Ellen is always listed as unmarried. Jane Leadbetter G/Dau (aged 4) is the daughter of Tabitha Ball & William Leadbettter. |
| Barbara Ball |
Hello Baxtersp
I found the Sugar Stick Lane lot as well and wondered if it was the right family. Can't find any trace of Robert Baxter but looing at you name you may know better. I have John Ball and his family up to 1901 when he is living on Southport Road. Do you have any documents giving Ellen as his mother? Thanks for the prompt response. Barbara |
| baxtersp |
So far I've married off 6 of John & Jane Ball's children, and John (b. abt 1848) isn't from any of those marriages. William Ball did have a son john born about 1849/50, but he must have died as William names another son John in 1858/59. It the same with Henry, he has a son John born 1849/50 who dies and then another born 1863/64.
Also on the 1871 Census Ellen is with her brother John, both still unmarried, and it does look like John (b. 1848ish) and James (born 1853ish) are her children. From North Meols Census 2nd April 1871, District 2, Page 8, Schedule no. 40 Sugar Stick Lane, Banks John Ball Head Unm 45 Farmer of 36 acres emp 2 men & 1 boy born North Meols Ellen Ball Sister Unm 55 House Keeper John Ball Sister Son Unm 23 Worker on the farm James Ball Sister Son Unm 18 Worker on the farm Jane Thompson Niece Mar 26 Domestic Servant I don't have anything on Hugh Baxter's son Robert yet, not even a baptism. I think the family may have lived outside North Meols for a while, as there is a big gap between the children they have baptised at St Cuthbert's. You said you have John Ball's marriage certificate, who did he marry? I have his (presumed) brother James married to Ann Peet in June Quarter 1877 (Volume 8b, Page 1045), but I haven't got John married to anyone yet. With all these John Ball's about it does make it tricky following them after they leave the family home. |
| Barbara Ball |
John Ball married Mary Jane Thomason, born North Meols 1845 on 23rd November 1871 at St Stephens church Banks. To make matters even more complicated Mary Jane's father is recorded as John Banks, Farmer. I've found Mary Jane as far back as 1851 - guess what, living with her grandmother! Did no-one in North Meols get married? Mary Jane has a daughter, Ellen who is recorded as 'Ball' in 'the 1901 census and as Thomason' in the 1881. She also lived in the Thomason household in 1871.
Confusing or what Barbara |
| baxtersp |
Not that unusual I can assure you Barbara, most have a few skeletons in the closet, and my tree's certainly no exception. You're lucky to have a father given on Mary Jane's marriage certificate, more often than not they just leave the father's details blank if the bride or groom's parents never married.
It's more tricky when it's the groom who was born outside marriage. You never know what surname he'll use when he gets married, and there's no certainty he'll stick to it after the marriage. Sometimes they marry under their father's surname, use that for twenty tears on the Census and then switch back to their mother's surname. It's lucky Banks is such a small place, it makes it easier to spot this sort of thing. Thanks for the marriage date, I already had Mary Jane Thomason married to a John Ball, but like you I haven't given her mother a name yet. At least I can add her father's name now. I suppose there's just two possibilities for Mary Jane's mother. As far as I know Richard and Isabel Thomason (nee Baker) only had two daughters, Ellen baptised 1st May 1825 and Alice (baptised Alice Thomases) 11th November 1827. |
| Dotty |
Phew...My head is spinning with all your coming and going...Banks people certainly lead eventful lives. So glad you've managed to hook up with our resident Banks expert! Dotty 
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| Barbara Ball |
Hi Baxtersp
The only clue I have to John Banks is the witness at Mary Jane and John Ball's marriage. She is Cicely Banks. I found her living with an aunt but haven't yet tried to trace the aunt back any further. Cicely married Robert Brade, the other witness in 1875 and as far as I can see they had no children. Alice Thomason would have been 17 if she was Mary Jane's mother - not impossible I suppose. |
| baxtersp |
Hello Babara
I haven't got any parent for Cicely Banks yet, she's another one the seems to spend all her time with her grandparents, Robert Banks (born about 1787) of Tarleton and his wife Mary (born about 1796) of Burscough. I know Robert and Mary's daughter Jane had a son Robert outside marriage, but Cicely isn't Jane's daughter as she's with Jane in 1871 as a niece. I can't see a John Banks with them, perhaps Cicely was John's cousin. There are a few John Bank's baptised at St Mary's in Tarleton, http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Tarleton/index.html |