Looking for ancestors

jmlead · Looking for ancestors - Mails/Meols etc

Let me introduce myself. I am Jim Mails (Meols). Over the years the name has been spelled like people hear it. I have had lots of different spellings over the years, and understand why it is some times very difficult to trace ancestors.

Currently my trace has led me to Meols, UK. where I am trying to find the name Meols.
Can any one shed light on the subject for me? Any help will be gratefully accepted.

Over the ages something has always drawn me to the UK, Ireland, area, and now I am begining to understand why.

Thanks in advance for any help you can give me.

Jim Mails (Meols ?)

Bez

Welcome to the forum Jim.

There was a De Meols (or Meales) family here a long time ago but they appear to have died out by the 14th century. The name is generally thought to be a variation of the Norse word for sandhill.

This is North Meols and there is another Meols in Cheshire, but that is pronounced "Mells" which is closer to the Norse, whereas we pronounce it as it is written (literally "meols").

During the Civil War Prince Rupert crossed over the Ribble estuary from Freckleton Naze and "marched up the mells" according to the history books - in other words he marched along the sandhills.

Maybe your ancestors came from around here, or maybe it was Cheshire, but they probably took their name from the place where they lived which would have been a place near the coast with a lot of sandhills.

Good luck with your search.

jmlead

Thank you so much Bez,

I think we may be getting close. I know I am in the right area. I will continue to search, and let you know what I find.

I have followed leads on Mells, Meols, and Meales, in my search. I will keep searching the records.

I will stay in touch, and keep watching the forum for more information.

Thanks again,

Jim Mails

Jane

So glad you knew all that Bez - lots of it new to me.

I'm not sure I've ever come across Meols/Meales/Mails as a surname before. Jim maybe you could list some of what you have on a thread under the letter M. You never know if anyone can help.

sooner

looking at trees on ancestry it looks as though the De Meols family were in Devon in the 1200's and then their daughter [Joan] married Robert De Coudrey of North Meols.

jmlead · looking for ancestors

Jane and sooner,
I have found evidence in the tree to confirm roots in Wales, Ireland, and the UK. They came down from the North, and settled in the Meoles area, and some went to Ireland and Scottland.

It is so very hard to pin point. So my feelings tell me to just accept those in the Meol and North Meol area as friends and kin folk.

It would be so very nice after making friends in the area, to make the trip over and visit. I look forward to that possibility.

I think I will get to the challenge of posting a picture or two.

Thanks for your info.

Jim

jmlead

Bez,

Taking their name from where they lived, and there being sandhills in the area, would it be probable or likely they lived near Meols, Wirral ?

Jim

Bez

Er, yes - that is actually what I meant when I said Cheshire. Apparently it has only been in the Metropolitan Borough of Wirral since local government reorganisation in 1974 - just as Southport is now supposed to be in Merseyside, a term I refuse to use we are still within the boundary of the County Palatine of Lancaster, but that's another story.

I still think of Hoylake as being in Cheshire, but that is now Wirral as well. Of course, both places have always been on the Wirral peninsula, but it used to be called Cheshire.

Sorry if I have caused you any confusion.

Another variation of the name was Meles.

jmlead

Bez, please excuse my ignorance of those facts you mentioned about what the area is or used to be called. I started my search two weeks past, and I know very little about the area, however, I welcome to learn more. Thanks for the history lesson. I have been a life long learner since 1992, and welcome the information. Please feel free to discuss the Merseyside/County Palatine of Lancaster subject. I welcome the information.

I did a search of the 1841 Census, and found 23 listings of the Surname Mails. As I look on, there listings of Mails in all the Census years. I really want to learn more History of your land. I am only aware of the movement Southward into your area, and the forming of society in those years.

If you would, please give me reference to books of History I can read to enlighten me further.

Thanks in advance Bez, and may you have a happy Easter season.

Jim Mails

SeaCopRimmer

The Domesday Book (1086) says - "Mele was held by three Thanes, for three Manors.........; ...... in that part of Lancashire between the Ribble and the Mersey"

My belief is that the word Mele is derived from the Viking word Otregrimele, and was so called when by them when they landed c.1020(ish). The information I have gleaned over the past 12 years is mainly from the books by Walter Jesson (Megasaga and Betwixt Ribbel and Moerse) and from the origin of the surname Rimmer by Arthur Rimmer - both men having put in many years of research and study on both the surname and the area - Walter Jesson's books both worthy of a read by anybody researching this area (and may be purchased from the North Meols (Southport) FHS.

Incidentally - DNA testing (so far) has proved that the only 100% Viking match was a Wilfred Rimmer from the Wirral!

admin

I've moved this - only because i thought it made more sense under asking for help

Jim - you might find it useful to have a look at the society web site. There is a list of the publications we sell and they can easily be bought and paid for via the Internet

Bez

The Walter Jesson books are an interesting read, but have a very big drawback - they are not referenced at all, so there is no way of verifying anything the author has written.

There are only 2 academic histories of North Meols - the first was by William Farrer (History of North Meols, published 1906) and part of this can be found online as part of the digital version of the Victoria County History of Lancashire.

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=41326

There is a separate section dealing with the Parish of North Meols.

The only modern book to rival Farrer's History of North Meols is "North Meols and Southport: A History" by Peter Aughton. This is now out of print, but second-hand copies can be obtained over the internet.

There is also the "Annals of Southport", by Edward Bland (1903) and this can be viewed online.

http://openlibrary.org/b/OL7028591M/Annals-of-Southport-and-district.

However, a word of caution for Bland. His early history is full of mistakes because he published before Farrer, so didn't have the benefit of Farrer's research. Also, despite taking what he thought were the salient points from the local papers when they came into existance, he managed to make some pretty glaring errors. (Such as putting in the wrong name for the lifeboat involved in the "Mexico" disaster - the boat he named had been taken out of service some 20 years earlier). Having said that, it is an excellent starting point so long as you remember that he didn't include everything that you might have expected, and he did make mistakes. Its major advantage is that it is not only indexed, it is arranged chronologically into years, so it is very easy to find things. I really like Bland, despite its shortcomings.

jmlead

Thank you admin,
and thank you Bez,
for all you do to help us newbies to the site. I am a Security Officer, and had the 3rd shift, to fill in for another person, last evening, so my post is off-timing just a bit. You are probably just ready to have dinner.

Thanks for the leads you have provided. I will be spending quite some time researching the info.

As soon as I compile my research data, I will post it for further conversation.

Thanks again,
Jim Mails (????)

jmlead

Hello admin,

Do you have a URL for the society web site?

Thanks,
Jim (????)

Jane

www.nmfhssouthport.co.uk

sutcliffe

An early record of the Preston Guilds 1397 lists on the Roll of Free Burgesses of Preston, John of the Males and Geoffrey de Meles.
In his ' Memorials of the Preston Guilds' 1882 , William Alexander Abram states that "The local surnames of the second half of the fourteenth century were mostly of four descriptions; first , those derived from the locality to which the the family was attached with the prefix 'de'; secondly, a few Norman surnames, thirdly, those which denoted businesses or occupations, with the prefix 'le'; and, fourthly, those formed out of the paternal or maternal name, with the affix 'son'. " Abram puts de Meles in the first group along with names such as De Fleetwood, De Wigan, De Leyland , De Alston, De Fyshwick etc.
He goes on to state that " the connection is obvious of the Burgesses of Preston who bore some of the names in the first caregory with the local townships or manors of Preston, Wigan, Hoghton, Meols "(p. 10).
It might be worth checking how long de Meles is recorded on these rolls which were published every twenty years, and when , or if , there was a
name change.
Paul Sutcliffe

Dotty · I say...

Well, I found that interesting...thank you Paul.

Dotty

Bez

There is another good book on Southport which is available second hand:

"A History of Southport" by Francis A Bailey which was first printed in 1955 and then reprinted in 1992 by Sefton Council to mark the bi-centenary of Southport.

PS. That's something else to confuse the unwary. Southport is now administered by Sefton Council with the centre of administration being in Bootle.

jmlead

Paul, thanks so much.
I have been reading "The Middle Sort of People in Provincial England, 1600-1750
By Henry",
and find my researching so very enlightening.

Jim

jmlead

Bez,

Do you think people of that era were so much like people of today, in that going into finite detail, created so many tangents and confused the unwary?

The phrase, "there is nothing new under the sun", comes to mind.

I have an insatiable desire for learning, and this material you have provided me, is fuel for the fire.

Thanks,
Jim (????)

Bez

All of this confusion is from 1974 onwards. I see our ancestors as being a lot more direct (and honest) in their dealings with other folk.

I sit in my conservatory at my potting bench, sorting out seedlings while watching the hens in the garden and I think of my predecessors as I look across to the roof of the church founded by my ancestors. I try to imagine them growing their own produce and rearing their livestock; doing what they needed to keep body and soul together, and I like to think that I'm emulating them in a small way.

They led incredibly hard lives - worked hard and played hard (which is what I did when younger). They lived and loved in the same way that we do - that never changes - but apart from their lifestyle, I think the only confusing thing was the North Meols dialect which was unintelligible to outsiders unless you happened to be Norwegian, when you apparently stood a good chance of understanding what was being said. Regrettably my parents' generation was the last one to be brought up to speak it on a regular basis. The dialect was probably responsible for a lot of variation in spelling in the Parish Registers as the Rector and Curates were invariably outsiders unfamiliar with the dialect and who would have just written names down how they sounded. In fact, with some of the names such as Rimmer, you can see when someone new started to write the Registers because the spelling changed.

Anyway, it wasn't the local people who decided that we should become part of "Merseyside" and that our council should be named after a tiny village that's so small if you blink you'd miss it. (It's probably quite charming but there doesn't seem to be anything much there).

So.........sorry if I have confused you about locations, it wasn't intentional, but some of us feel very strongly that we are historically and geographically Lancastrians and you've probably guessed by now that I am one of them.

PS. Did I mention that I have de Meols ancestors?

jmlead

Quite interesting about your de Meols ancestory, Bez. No...you had not mentioned that.

I quite agree with you about your ancestors being more direct and honest.
I find the same true with mine as well. While on my "soap box", I must say, I find that ("that"...being direct and honest) a result of parents today having a different value system than our generation. Someone once told me they believe parents should be educated how to raise their children. I responded by saying, "I too believe parents should be taught...at about age 5". (!)

OK, after having said that (whew ! ), I am trying to determine where I fit into the family tree. I thought it quite interesting the 1841 Census found 23 listings of the surname Mails. Could that be from someone of that day spelling the name like it sounded, rather than coming from accurate documentation?

Jim

Jane

Even though I'm not from these parts - born & bred in Lincoln so a yellow belly! I am finding all this chat really interesting. Obviously I have a great interest in local history, maybe because to me Southport is so new, Lincoln being Roman. I have read & own many of the local history books but there is always more to learn.

Which I think is one reason I feel people should be writing these things down for future generations. Just think of all the true local history that has been lost down the generations. I would have loved to have read about ordinary everyday life of my Grandma for example. Things we might think boring won't be to our Grand children in the future - although my own really have little interest in history. I think it is one of those subjects you become more interested in as you get older.

I too found I went off at a tangent when i first started my husband's family history. Thankfully from what I've learnt he doesn't seem to have a connection with The Scarisbrick family from the Hall - although it would have been nice to live in the stately home

And have fun on the way learning about lots of other things

The best advice though Jim is to start from what you know and work back generation by generation until you can find evidence of any links

Bez

SeaCopRimmer

I agree with Bez - listen to the names rather than read them! When in the Lancashire Record Office recently I found some notes in the front of a Parish Register written in shorthand - I was gobsmacked that I could translate most of it even though it had been written in the very early 1700's; this merely confirmed my belief that Parish Clerks used phonetics which gives us the variations in a number of surnames these days.
Don't think you've missed any variants of Rimmer, Bez - but I wonder how many we could come up with if we listed those from the numerous Census Returns

jmlead

Accurate documentation indeed Bez,
as I have been pulling my hair all day on that one. It has taken me some time to realize that, listening and digesting what I have gotten on this thread.
I am now reading and copying the history information on the two links you sent previous. The library in Fort Wayne, Indiana has a copy of "Annals of Southport and district. A chronological history of North Meols from Alfred the Great to Edward VII.
by E Bland ",
and I look forward to reading it.

I am also finding links of ancestry in Chester. As I can, I will forward these to you.

Thanks ever so much for all the information.

Jim

Dotty · Well...

How come the fort Worth library has that book Jim? Maybe there are North Meols folk living in the area...you could start a society of your own!

Dotty (definitely)

Bez

jmlead

Hi Dotty,

That is Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA, not Fort Worth which is in Texas, USA.

I sent them an e-mail asking to check the book out. They said they could not send it to me, because none of the material from the Genealogy Center circulates. They did say however, they could send me copies of specific information, and they sent me a form to utilize that service.

Dotty, I will check for relatives in that area.

Jim

Bez

But you can download the entire digitised version.

jmlead

I will have to check with them on that Bez.
It is doubtful they will do that, just by the fact they said "we can send you copies of specific information".

Just yesterday I loaded XP operating system on my computer, and lost some of my data in the process, so it may take some time to get back up to speed with my geneology.

Jim

bobg

Jim,

The Annals of Southport by E Bland can be downloaded at:

http://openlibrary.org/details/annalsofsouthpor00blaniala

Dotty · Doh...

Well Jim...I'm not called Dotty for nothing! I must have been having a senior moment...

It's nice to know that a little piece of England resides in Fort Wayne, Indiana!

Dotty

jmlead

Hi Dotty,

Good to hear from you again.
I have been reading from the Annals of Southport on the link bobg sent me. I'm just beginning the read, and it is very interesting material.

I find it a pleasure conversing with people who are in the UK, and those from other parts who have a great interest in the Mother Land.

Thanks bobg for the link.

Jim

Bez

jmlead

Bez,

I was distracted by problems with my system about then, and I apologize for not giving you credit for the link. Thanks for reminding me of it.

I like the way Bland has things in chronological order. That does make it much easier to research.

I have found someone recorded in the County of Northumberland who I need to confirm. The records are quite difficult to get the correct spelling of some of the information.

I will peruse the web sites more carefully from now on.

Thank you Bez

Bez

The ads at the bottom of the page keep changing but I was just about to close down the computer when I realised there was a reply on this thread, so I checked it and spotted an ad for Meols Hall.

http://business.thewowhousecompany.com/properties/meolshall

This explains the amount of traffic coming down the side entrance to the hall sometimes (it's opposite the end of my road) which I thought a bit strange as the family no longer live here.

Anyway, there are some nice photos (and nice prices) and I thought you might appreciate a little peak at our local manor house. There is another one in Manor Road which once belonged to the Bold family, but that is tiny and has no land. Meols Hall belongs to the Hesketh family nowadays.

PS. The main view is of the back of the house with the Ha Ha in the bottom half of the photo.
The photo of a room with a picture of a stallion on the wall is the library which was built to house the painting. The "Painting of a Fly-blown stallion" is life-sized.

jmlead

Bez,
Thanks for the link to Meols Hall. I think the furnishing are great, and what about the prices...they are great also (in another meaning of the word).

So I take it you live close to Meols Hall? How fortunate to be a part of all that history and culture ! I'm envious.

Jim

Bez

Yes, I live in Churchtown and my de Coudray ancestors built the first Meols Hall, but no one in my direct line of descent has been Lord of the Manor since about 1488.

The grandfather of the present Lord of the Manor actually did the "Father of the Bride" speech at my wedding (many years ago) as my father didn't like public speaking at all. They were business partners as well as friends.

It's true that I do feel very close to some of my ancestors, especially my 4x gr grandparents, John Hooton and Ellen Aughton who were founder members of the Independent Chapel (now Churchtown URC). John was also credited with the introduction of handloom weaving for cotton into this area.

This is a beautiful area and well worth a visit if you ever get to come over here - even if you find that your ancestors originated from the other Meols.

jmlead

I have looked at many pictures of the area, and it truly is as beautiful as I imagined. I have wanted to visit the UK for quite some time now, and when my search for ancestors is over, I will plan the trip. Strange, but there has always been a desire in my heart to visit the area, as well as Ireland and Scotland.

I have always felt a draw toward Meols of Wirral. I feel it is that area I will find family roots.

Bez, if ever you find information, be it a web site or book material, please pass it along. "Let loose the hounds", and they are fast afoot.

Jim Mails(Meols)

sutcliffe

By the way, the names of Ball, Rimmer and Wright of North Meols are all recorded on the rolls of the Preston Guilds in the course of the eighteenth century. Scarisbrick is of course 'of Scarisbrick'. It might be worth looking at the rolls to see who was listed. The very fact of being on these rolls gave the families a considerable importance and influence beyond the confines of their own estates.
Paul Sutcliffe

jmlead

Paul, I am such a novice at this whole thing...finding all the resources etc. Where can I access the Preston Guilds you speak of? I apologize for being such a bother, however I thank you so very much for your help.

Jim Mails

sutcliffe

I have been informed that they may be freely available online by 2011, if Preston are prepared to host the lists on their website. As there are about sixty thousand names and the rolls have been recorded every 20 years since the beginning of the fourteenth century up until 1992, this will be no mean task. It relies on the work of volunteers, just like Lancashire BMD, for its completion. The next Preston Guild , by the way , is in 2012. The early documents are kept at Lancashire Record Office. William Alexander Abrams,famous Lancashire historian specializing in family history amongst other things, produced a document in 1882 entitled 'Memorials of the Preston Guilds'.(reprinted by Preston corporation in paperback form 1971) He gives summaries of the most important names of the families registered in Preston starting about 1397. The actual rolls contain much more detailed information, I am told, giving family names, places of residence( estate names), occupations etc. It was a bit like Eton , I think, you registered your male offspring as soon as they were born. There were two types of roll members the so-called In-Burgesses who had property in Preston and the foreign Burgesses who did not live there but wanted to be registered. No real distinction is made between the, in modern terms, 'social class' of the registered so that Earls are alongside traders. From the number of different Estates registered you can see the power and influence of various families spread over a wide geographical area. A good example would be the Heskeths who were also very prominent in North Meols / Southport.( 1772 Hesketh of Wrightington, of Meols, of Maines, of Rosaker). 1722 Hesketh of Rufford, of Goosnargh and of Preston. 1702 with names 'Thomas Hesketh of Rufford esq. and his son;Thomas Hesketh of Maines and his four sons; William Hesketh son of Barnaby of Meales and his brother; Roger Hesketh of Meales and his two brothers. I don't have access to the full names just some summaries, but you can see that a full publication would give the chance for amateur family historians to follow their lineage back into earlier centuries.
Paul

Looking for ancestors - Mails/Meols etc

I say...

Well...

Doh...