Mary Jane Rimmer c1859

clubbyr8 · Mary Jane Rimmer c1859

I'm looking for information on George Howard's wife, Mary Jane Rimmer born c1859 in North Meols. Father was Peter Rimmer born c1837 in North Meols. Mother was Jenny ??? born c1836 in North Meols.

I don't know when Mary was born or died, when Peter Rimmer was born or died, what Jenny's maiden name was or when she was born or died.

It appears that in the 1861 census Peter is listed with Jenny. In the 1871 census Jenny is a widow. In the 1881 census Jenny had married a Howard.
In the 1891 and 1901 she is listed as the wife of John Howard!!!!

Two different (but related) Rimmer's marrying two different Howard's. Confusing or what????

Jane

Just a thought - have you tried the Park data base?

clubbyr8

Thanks Jane, didn't know about it. Looking now.

clubbyr8

I think I might have found the marriage of Peter Rimmer and Jenny. Looks like her name was Jennet(t) Brookfield and they got married in the December quarter 1857. In the 1861 census she is listed as Jennet Rimmer and the 1871 census as Jenney Rimmer (and a widow).

Looks like I'm making some progress.

Germaine

Sorry I missed this thead Bob.
Yes think you are right on the info you have found.
I found this death it seems to match up with the last child that Peter had and the next census. Also his age on the 1861 census,
Don't know if you looked but did you notice John Howard wasn't on the 1881 census with Jenny but she was down as married I think I found him in Warrington.
Germaine
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Death Quarter 1 1869 Rimmer Peter 33 Ormskirk 8b 482
1881 census
John Howard abt 1841 Banks, Lancashire, England Boarder Rixton With Glazebrook, Lancashire

clubbyr8

Thanks Germaine appreciate the help.

I did notice John Howard was missing form the the 1881 census with Jenny but haven't tried to locate him yet.

On another note, the marriage certificate for George Howard and Mary Rimmer states their father's names. In Mary's case it's Peter Howard but it doesn't state he is deceased. I have other marriage certificates that state whether the father is alive or not. What was the normal practise?

Jane

They usually state deceased if that was the case but................sometimes didn't when the father had died. The information on any certificate is only as good as the person supplying it.

Germaine

Oh that is funny Peter Howard it looks like she mixed the two up or did you mean Peter Rimmer.
Like Jane said it wasn't uncommon for them not to mention their parents were deceased. Only thing was if they did it was a help.
There again they sometimes made things up too.
Didn't like to make it easy.

Germaine
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clubbyr8

Doh, too early in the morning. Um, I meant Peter Rimmer. It was 4.35 am when I posted it.

Well done Germaine, you found my deliberate mistake

Germaine

Ah makes a change for me not to be the one that made the bloomer.
Germaine
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Dotty · Chuckle...

Hi Bob

I thought it was just me who got carried away doing family history. On the first day I got Ancestry I was up till 5am...

Dotty :grin:

Jane

he's the other side of the World - and a very early riser

Dotty · Well...

I hadn't thought of early rising...anyway, he's still keen!!

Dotty

Germaine

Aren't we all more so at first.
Oh the times I used to go to bed.
Now i think well they are not going anywhere so will leave it.
Mind you still spend hours. Love a mystery
Gemaine
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Yvonne

There is a Peter Rimmer baptised 20 Aug 1837
son of John and Mary, Birkdale, Labourer

the next one further back was baptised 1831

(St Cuthbert's Registers only)

clubbyr8

Germaine

This will be the birth you have foudn Bob Churchtown Congregational Jun 15 1836 John and Mary Rimmer (Howard) b Apr 26 weaver Ch/ Town
Will have a nosey about later ( childminding at the minute)

Germaine
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Bez

clubbyr8

Hi Bez,

Yes I think that's the one. Peter and Jennet's last child (Alice) was born in 1868 and the 1871 census shows Jennet (Jenney, Jennie) as a widow.

So this looks like the correct Peter.

Thanks Bez.

Bez

Now, here's the thing - the Society has indexed the 1851 census and there is no Jennet Brookfield in North Meols at that time - however there is a Jane Brookfield aged 15, daughter of Peter Brookfield and his wife Ellen of Churchtown. She was born on 21st November 1835 and baptised on December 27th the same year at the Independent Chapel, Churchtown. The Rev William Alexander wrote her mother's name down as Helen, maiden name Abram.

The names Jane and Jenny have been interchangeable in a number of instances and this seems to be another case. "Jennet" Brookfield's age is given as 22 in the marriage register and if this is really Jane then she only knocked 3 weeks off her actual age.

I have just checked the 1841 census and she was listed as Jenny, while she is Jane on the 1851 census and with a younger brother called Thomas Brookfield.
On the 1861 census Peter Brookfield's occupation changes to "Carter" so I do think that Jane, Jenny and Jennet are all the same person.

Now I can work out how my next door neighbour is related to me.

Bez

PS. Bob - what relationship is Peter Rimmer to you?

John Rimmer and Mary Howard were my 3x gr grandparents.

clubbyr8

Hi Bez,

Peter and Jennet were my Great Great Grandparents. If all the information is correct.

Bez

Hi Bob

If all this is correct then you and I are 4th cousins and you are a 3rd cousin once removed from my next door neighbour.

clubbyr8

Well hi there cuz

Bez

As I said previously, Peter Brookfield (Jennet's father) is listed on the tithe map as occupying the cottage next door (albeit with others). However my neighbour says that is where the family lived for the last 160+ years and as they attended the Congo's (being the nearest church) with the Rimmer family that is where Jennet was most likely brought up.

I can email you a photo of the cottage if you pm me with your email address, although not just at the moment as I am at my sister's house at the other end of the village.

clubbyr8

Thanks Bez, PM sent.

Dotty · North Meols rules OK!

On Saturday 3 committee members manned a stand at a huge family history fair at St George's Hall in Liverpool.

There were groups there who have thousands of members whilst we have less than 200 but I bet we are the only group who have such a close relationship with other group members.

It is heartwarming to read how helpful we are to each other...

Ooopss...am I waxing lyrical?

Dotty

Jane

Maybe this post Dotty would have been better in a different place.

But having had contact with a few other societies I do think we are one of a few (if not only?) who offer free research. Most charge at least a small fee and some a huge amount.

Bez

I think Dotty was just commenting on how, between us all, we have got Bob's ancestors sorted and I've had the added bonus of getting a new cousin. We offer so much more than many larger societies.

Dotty · In tune...

That is exactly what I meant and thank you for putting it so well, Bez.

Dotty

Jane

Sorry..................

I thought it had gone a bit off topic - and that more people would see if it was say under thanks to the society or something like that.

Dotty · Ahhh....

Don't look sad...I know what you meant and I agree with you. Maybe Admin could put it somewhere else where it could blow our own trumpet!

clubbyr8

Regardless of where the thread is put, I for one, are most grateful for the help I have received here. It's because of everyone's assistance I have joined the society (just waiting for my membership pack). This decision wasn't taken lightly as being an overseas member has considerable disadvantages over being a local member.

[1] I can't be a committee member.
[2] It would be difficult in participating in the indexing of census or parish registers.
[3] I can't attend meetings.
[4] I can't attend open days.
[5] I miss out on talks provided by other members.

At the end of the day the friendly welcoming nature of the people that run this forum (and other members) far outweigh the negatives. That is why I became a member.

I joined this forum less than three weeks ago and through the help of a number of people on here, I have gotten further in my research that I have in the last eight years.

Take a bow everyone.

Jane

Wow! What a lovely thing to say. Thank you. It really makes everything I do worthwhile

I know your membership pack is on the way and I hope you enjoy the magazine too.

I just thought the thread had gone off at a tangent but I will leave things as they are - and so will admin. But I may copy this post and read it out at the next committee meeting

Germaine

Well Bob I can't do any of the things you list either and I am only a few mile away.

But I still look forward to the quartly mag etc.
I am just suprised that I seem the only one from Fleetwood as so any from North Meols came here when it was a new town back in the mid 1800's.
But I now know how why true Fleetwood people are so frinedly it is from our roots

Welcome aboard.
Germaine
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Dotty · Speechless

Wow indeed...

Germaine

Well you know they have a saying here Dotty.

Kick one person in Fleetwood and the whole of Fleetwood limps.

Well it isn't the same now so many outsiders coming in but us true Codheads are like that.
Germaine
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clubbyr8

Well after searching for a while, can't find any information on Mary on the Park database. I can find her father (Peter) but there is no mention of his marriage to Jenny Brookfield or of him having any kids!!

On the obit (1937) that Jane found for George Howard there is no mention of her. Can I assume that she then died before George? She is mentioned in the newspaper article about their son Norman being killed in WW1 in 1917. So can I assume she died between these two dates?

Jane

Never assume anything - but at least it narrows down the years to search for a possible death. If you find one let me know & I shall see if there is anything in a local paper

Bez

clubbyr8

Thanks Bez, look forward to the update.

clubbyr8

Well thanks to the wonderful Jane and her husband, I now know when Mary died. Jane and Brian went to Duke Street cemetery to look for, and take a picture of the headstone of George Howard (Mary's husband). This is after Jane had rung the cemetery to get the grave location. The grave was located and it was found to contain at least five other people, among them Mary. She died on 23 Dec 1922.

Interestingly, the headstone doesn't have any details about George (as there wasn't any room to add anything). Interred in the grave are:
Norman Howard aged 3 months died 21 July 1894
John Howard aged 7 years died 19 Dec 1898
Jenny Howard aged 26 years died 1 July 1910
Mary Howard nee Rimmer aged 64 years died 23 Dec 1922
Ellen Edith Howard aged 34 years died 3 April 1927
George Howard aged 77 years died 30 March 1937

I know it's a bit cheeky (but I really don't have a choice considering where I live) but can someone spare some time and do a lookup of the Visiter in the library for funeral notices for the above dates? I would really appreciate any assistance.

Once again Jane and Brian have excelled them selves in helping a complete stranger. Thank you.

Germaine

Great info.
Germaine
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Dotty · I concur...

I'm pleased that you have had such sterling results from members of the society.

As I am often heard to say, we may be small in numbers but we are HUGE on help.

May your searching continue to be fruitful...

Dotty (waxing lyrical)

Jane

That's quite a list clubbyr8. I did find the last name - George Howard

Sadly because of the costs & time I can only offer to look for a few things in the library. The library charge 50 pence for each copy which can soon add up. And people abroad obviously can't get this money to me so it has to come from society funds.

You could try emailing the library - they do have a research facility but I have no idea of their charges.

Their site is -
http://www.sefton.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=5963

clubbyr8

Thanks Jane I have emailed the library.

Yvonne

Just been looking at some pictures of gravestones I have - Could this be John Howard's and Jenney's grave stone?
Jenny birth would appear to have been c1836

Germaine

Hi Yvonne just had a quick look at my tree and it could well be.
I have got Jenny dying c 1916 John was born c 1840 which all look good. Also John married Jenny in 1880 so that would fit in with Mary being his first wife and dying ( 1877).
Nice find
Germaine
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Germaine

Now could this be him in 1871 with Mary living in the next household to James and Bety Meadow (Betty Howard).
Germaine
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1871
Name Age
John Howard 32
Mary Howard 30
Ellen Howard 10
Peter Howard 8
Dorathey Howard 5
Nancy Howard 2
1881
with the George Howard I found
Name Age
John Howard 41
Ellen Howard 20
Peter Howard 18
Dorothy Howard 15
Nancy Howard 12
George Howard 26
Now I am getting confused .It says john is a widower but this looks like Jenny and I had found a marriage in 1880 that I thought was them.
she says married
Name Age
Jenny Howard 45
Mary Rimmer 22
John Rimmer 18
Betty Rimmer 15
Alice Rimmer 13

Yvonne

Germaine, think in 1881 census you had found John in Warrington, per page 1.

Germaine

Oh yes so I did you are not going to believe this I found it again on ancestry but when I go to the image I can't find him.

Why are there so many John Howards.

Germaine
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Ah found him now on the next page and it does look like it says he was married.
I am really confused now as there are two wives on the grave stone and the one in 1871 looks to be the only one with a wife called Mary and then that really looks like the same family in 1881. Do you think this is the right one that I was wrong before and perhaps they stayed in seperate houses till all the cildren were grown up.
HELP!!!

Germaine
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Yvonne

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Certainly looks the same family in the two census, perhaps Jenny was just visiting with the Rimmer's. Does it say she is head?

Germaine

Hi vonne ye sit says she is the head and is married no husband present but she has 4 of her Rimmer children with her.
address Knobb Hall Lane.
Then John is at Marshside Lane with 4 of his children also the George Howard I would have thought was his brother. He is head but a widower.
Perhaps they couldn't find a cottage big enough to fit them all in.
As far as I can see the only reason not to think that this is the right John is that he says a widower.
In 1891 he was a flager tiler in 1881 a lab for the town council. The other John was a farmer.
Germaine
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clubbyr8

Hi Germaine,

I don't think that is my George Howard in the 1881 census. It says he was about 26 years old which puts his birth year approximately 1855. My George was born about 1860 (the 1891, 1901 census and his marriage certificate prove it) so he would have been about 21 at the time of the census.

Germaine

So that means we still haven't found him in 1881.
Is that right.
Maybe whoever gave the details wasn't too sure of his age.
Seems strange he is with a John ( who we aren't sure is his brother) and then next door there is a Thomas that is the same age as his brother. Thomas.
Unless he was at some police training school he was a Police man when he marrried is that right?
Germaine
x

clubbyr8

He got married on 17 Apr 1882 and joined the Police Force on 16 Mar 1883.

His marriage certificate said he was a labourer.

Germaine

Ah right so this fits with the census just his age wrong. Not unusual .
My Grandad was 28 in 1908 and 23 in 1911

according to marriage cert and census.
Germaine
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Dotty · I say...

Reading the addresses...if Marshside Lane is now called Marshside Road then an explanation could be very simple.

Marshside Road and Knob Hall Lane share a t-junction. It would be easy for them to live right next door to each other and still be in two different streets! What addresses were they at at each address and I'll have a look on my day off! It's worth checking up on...

Dotty

Germaine

Hi Dottty

In 1881
Jenny at 14 Knob Hall Lane
John at 8 Marshside Lane
what looks like his brother Thomas at no. 7
Now not so sure if these were actual numbers of houses as then it says 9 Nelly Bakers Lane.
But that could expain if they were in different houses perhaps the cottages were too small for all the children.
Then the only problem would be why he said he was a widower.
they do look very close though as they are on consecutive pages he on 2 she on 3. 5 houses apart
Germaine
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Dotty · Mmmm...

Now that makes me wonder. I must have a look at the census myself. I think that the addresses were well away from each other. even taking into account possible number changes over the years.

TTFN

Dotty

Germaine

Thanks Dotty
Germaine
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Bez

Germaine

Hi Jane you are right they are schedule numbers.
Just had a look through, the route was Marshside Lane / Nelly Bakers Lane / Knobb Hall Lane / Bank Nook / Sea Cop / Then back to Marshside Lane then onto Shellfield Road where they start to use house numbers.
Germaine
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Jane

Germaine it wasn't me - credit to Bez for that

Germaine

Thanks Jane

Sorry Bez but it was early have you seen the time I posted.
My excuse and I am sticking to it.

Germaine
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Dotty · Well...

So Germaine has said it twice now...Nelly Baker's Lane! I didn't realise that there was yet another person with a street named for them. Does anyone know who Nelly Baker was.

Perhaps we should campaign for the proper name to be reinstated...after all we still have Cockle Dick's Lane. Any idea when it changed its name?

So it's not worth me checking those addresses if they were not the house numbers...shame.

Dotty

Germaine

I wonder if it was what is now Bakers Lane looks to be the right area on the map.
Yes wonder who she was.
Germaine
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I wonder
Baptism: 17 Aug 1787 St Cuthberts, North Meols, Lancashire, England
Ellen Baker - Daughter of John Baker & Ellen
Abode: Marsh Side
Source: LDS Film 1068944

Bez

That looks logical - Nelly Bakers Lane sounds so much better - I'm with you Dotty, it should be reinstated.

I have no idea who she was.

SeaCopRimmer

I think we should start a campaign - these 'local' names are much more interesting! From Bland:
April 17 1844: Died, aged 86, Ann, widow of Robert Rimmer; April 20, aged 84, Ellen, wife of John Baker; and April 21st, aged 84, William Johnson, all of North Meols. They were all natives and got their living from fishing. They had lived all their lives within a mile of each other.

Wonder if that's her?

Germaine

Yes Bez it would be nice if they reinstated old names they sound much nicer more of a history about them.

That looks promising doesn't it SeaCop. I wonder if at first they had the only cottage on the lane and that is how it got it's name.

Germaine
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Dotty · Mmmm...

It is something worth perusing...

Mary Jane Rimmer c1859

Chuckle...

Well...

North Meols rules OK!

In tune...

Ahhh....

Speechless

I concur...

I say...

Mmmm...

Well...

Mmmm...