| Archive for nmfhssouthport.myfreeforum.org North Meols (Southport) Family History Society |
| Germaine |
MeadowsI wonder if anyone is going to the libary if they have the time could they have a look in the local newspaper of the time for anything relating to Margaret Meadows arrest. I do have the snippet from the Liverpool newspaper but nothing from Southport. I live in Fleetwood so it is hard for me to get to Southport have been on a Sat. but then the library is shut.Any help i would be ever so grateful for and of course will pay. What i do have is this. Daily Post, Saturday April 21st 1860 Crown Court Yesterday Sentences Margaret MEADOWS, aged 19, was indicted for having at North Meols, on 8th February last, stolen a sovereign and a two shilling piece, from William LAWTON, 6months I also have the bill of costs and it states the witness and looks like this happened on Lord St. Thanks in advance Germaine Just a point that was made to me that she may have been here in 1860 and to check the papers here. . Haven't looked at the Fleetwood papers as I doubt she would have been here then, my G Grandather was born at Marshside in 1861-2 can't find his birth reg. I will do though leave no stone unturned as they say I do know she married here in 1869. Germaine x 
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| Dotty |
good timingHi GermaineYour timing is impecable...immpecable...impeccable...good! Several of us will be in the library the week after next. Are you a member of the society? I know that the library charges 50p per A4 page for photocopying. Am at work so better get on with a bit of filing, etc. Speak soon, Dotty 
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| Jane |
Now Dotty that would be a good idea. We can look it up while we are showing people how to do their research. Would be a good exercise in how to use the local papers and just what can be found. |
| Dotty |
nice one...I had a good idea.....yippee!We would need more information though about Germaine's grandfather. You always need every last bit of information...isn't that right Jane? (I'm going for a double....) Dotty 
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| Germaine |
Hi Dotty and Jane hey that is so good of you.Thankyou
I will start at the beginning I have loads on the Meadow/s . Yes I am a member of NFMHS which reminds me my yearly subs must be due  . I have the one name extracts of St. Cuthberts and when I checked through it all found that nearly all of the Meadows are mine. took me a long time to figure and sort it but today I got a document which ties it all in. It is of an indenture? of James Meadow obtaining land to build a mill in Scarisbrick on the land of Lord Eccleston haven't read it all yet very big and all scribbly writing and in oldish English. Anway it proves what I am going to tell you of the family is right.
I will start with John Meadows my Great Grandfather. He was the illigitimate son of Margaret Meadows he was born in 1861 or 62 he died aged 70 in 1942. A family story said his father was lost at sea before he was born and his name was Ball but in my research I found his step father was Gilbert Ball I do not think he could be his father as he was in Fleetwood married to his first wife at the time. Margaret and Gilbert married in 1869 in Fleetwood On the 1861 i could find no trace of his mother Margaret then found a M M in Kirkdale gaol her details fitting Margarets so researched further and found out about the Larceny. I have the snippet as I wrote from Liverpool also the bill of costs for her case. Do you want the details of that. On census John Meadows states birth place as Southport / North Meols and Marshside. He was a pain to trace as from 71 till he got married in 1883 he went by the name Ball then reverted back to Meadows. I have been unable to find the family together on any census after the last entry in the Parish reg. so I am thinking they were orphaned . Margaret c 1835 was the daughter of James Meadows b 1793 a miller, son of Henry Meadow c1768 who in turn was son of James Meadow c 1744 again a miller.I haven't been able to find when James 1793 or Henry 1768 died but I have found a James named on the parish reg in St. Cuthberts dying in 1835 aged 99 (good age for those days).Wonder if that is James that i have as 1744 I have more info on the family if you need it. Not sure how much you need if you need more let me know. Thanks again for your offer of help it is much appreciated and let me know if and when you want the money for copies. It is so kind of you . thanks again Germaine x
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| Dotty |
Phew...My head is spinning...How do you know the year of John Meadows death? Will get another look at it when I get home, Dotty 
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| Jane |
I have a Meadow - well in my husband's family.
Mary Meadow (born 1801) married Henry Barlow 28 June 1819 at St Cuthbert's Church, North Meols I do have all census information for them. Mary's parents were James & Mary but that is all the information I have. Might be time for me to try and investigate further. Anyway Germaine I really hope we find an article for you. If you do want it printed it costs 50 pence a page - that is the library charge and not ours. |
| Germaine |
Hi Dotty Hi Jane sorry if I have put too much info down wasn't sure what to put.
I know Johns death as I have found the monumental inscription though couldn't find his grave ( not sure if it is one that has been pulled down or if I was looking in the wrong part of the cemetery. Jane just looking at the parish reg. Do you think this is your Mary Meadows. Baptism Mary - Jan. 3 - 1802 - d - James & Mary - Hallsall there is also a Richard - Jun. 7 - s - James & Mary - Halsall wonder if this is Mary and James marriage James Meadow = Mary Hodge Jun 27 1796. Germaine x
Oh forgot yes that is fine about the cost do you want the money now or later? Don't mind paying up front even if you don't find anything so happy someone is looking for me.
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| Jane |
Thanks for that. It certainly looks like the right one. I love the way we can all help each other at the click of a button. 
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| Germaine |
Oh that is good Yep it is great isn't it. Love it when I find something either for myself or someone else. Very satisfying.
Germaine x
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| Dotty |
oh boyWell what a lot of info in the few hours since I was last on the forum. Glad you have found some common ground and are happy swapping family histories.I did miss the prog tonight...was it as good as it promised to be? Dotty 
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| Bez |
Hi Germaine, indenture is the correct term for your document.
You may notice on your copy that the original had a cut edge? This is because all copies of a document were written on a single piece of paper/vellum/parchment or whatever and then it was cut up and the individual copies given to the people concerned as proof of the transaction. The document couldn't be faked because the pieces would only fit with each other. In other words, it had an indented edge or edges. |
| Germaine |
Ah thanks Bez hey you learn something everyday. Yes it is cut. I wondered why they were called that now I know
Thanks Germaine x
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| Jane |
Do you know I always wondered why they were called that too. Thanks Bez. Top of the class and a gold star for you - well I would if the smilies worked but they are playing about this morning 
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| Bez |
Alan Crosby did explain it last year as it cropped up in the "Wills and Probate" course - many early wills having a double function as they dealt with land transfers and took the place of title deeds.
This year he is doing "Title Deeds" - we did entailment on Wednesday. As everything has evolved from the Manorial System we are also (briefly) covering that. So on Wednesday he actually drew a diagram of Indentures and how they were created, just to make it clear to us. I'm glad you both understood my verbal "diagram".   
PS: I'm not sure there is a "Gold Star" in the extra emoticoms - I can't see one, anyway. |
| Germaine |
Hi I would like to publicy thank Jane and everyone for your help on this one. Although only a few lines it is another piece in my jigsaw of Margaret and her family.
Thank you again Germaine
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| Dotty |
Three cheers...Yes, Jane is brill isn't she?A veritable Sherlock Holmes... Dotty 
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| Germaine |
Yes she certainly is Dotty has made my day today.
Germaine x
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| Jane |
Oh thank you. I like finding anything that helps. But it is nice to know it is appreciated. |
| PatF |
Hello to all of you included in the above posts - really interesting stuff.
Just started going into my mother's side of the family (Singleton) and have found the Balls of North Meols - have posted about them on my first visit. Thomas Ball married an Elizabeth Andow Meadow before he married my gtgtgrandmother, Alice Wareing (1850) and I wondered if anyone has connections with Elizabeth - know nothing about her except that she married Thomas 29.4.1823 in North Meols - they are on the 1841 census with their family and on the 1851 - Elizabeth has been replaced by Alice! Hoping to hear from somebody........thanks.........Pat |
| Germaine |
Hi Pat I will look into my Meadows and see if I can find anything.
I have found their marriage at St. Cuthberts on the extracts I have and as far as I have found up to now I think most of the Meadows named in it were of the same family. Germaine x
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| Germaine |
Hi Pat. Well it is the Andow bit that is throwing me . On my copy of the extracts of the parish reocrds. It has Elizabeth Andow (Meadow) so I am wondering if the Andow could be what it looked like but is Meadow? or was it a middle name.
Looking at the parish records and the census It could well be one of my family of Meadows. Thing is that on the 1841 ages were not exact (rounded up and down ) So we cannot be sure of her age. Also if you check out Thomas age he is way out on the following census to the 1841 Luckily he looks to have stayed in the same house so we know it is him. so as long as I am right Elizabeth would have been born in 1802 daughter of George Meadow and Ann Hunt. George was the brother to my ancestor Henry they were both son's of the miller James Meadow who I mention in the indenture that I have. I am going to try and copy the indenture but will need to get rid of my lot and have a few hours to copy it all. I don't want to keep getting it in and out of the roll so as not to spoil it. But will do it. it is very interesting. Hope this helps if you need more just shout. Germaine x
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| PatF |
MeadowsHello GermaineThanks for the quick reply. I thought perhaps Andow was a surname of one of her relations as I think I am right in saying when searching did find some Elizabeth Andows somewhere. On the copy of the 1841 I have I couldn't actually make out his age but as you say it is the right Thomas. Elizabeth is only connected to me by their marriage but it is good to be able to find out as much as possible about her. I hadn't even started to look for her parents so you seemed to have saved me a job - thanks
The indenture does sound interesting Germaine. Once again thanks for the info - I am now going to copy it down into my records. Really appreciate your help - bye for now - Pat |
| Germaine |
Your very welcome Pat if you need anything any dates etc just let me know you can have what I have found. Funny thing is that Margaret Meadows eventually married a Gilbert Ball here in Fleetwood. I haven't gone into his side too much as yet so who knows he may well be related to Thomas.
Good Luck with your trees. Germaine x
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| PatF |
MeadowsHello GermaineGot your info onto my file now and I also went on the .net to find a photograph of St Cuthberts Church where I believe there are a lot of Balls buried as well as being the place Thomas and Elizabeth married; I don't know who Thomas's parents are but when I get around to trying to find them I will look out for a Gilbert. I would love to find photographs of the family and I picked three Ball names out of the BT directory in the Southport area and wrote asking if they were connected - one lady aged 80 rang me and said her husband was a Thomas and his father before him (his mother was a Hosker)and she said she knows of somebody researching the Ball family (a cousin of her husband) and she will try to get in touch with him as unfortunately she didn't know much about her husband's family and apparantley before her Thomas became ill he wanted to find more about his family and they visited St Cuthberts and found a lot of ancestors there; she said the Balls seemed to intermarry quite a lot which had confused her husband but people seemed to stay put in those days so I suppose they were a bit stuck for a choice of partners  Sent SAE with the letters but not heard back from the other two so I guess they aren't connected or interested. Might try another 3!!!!!
Bye for now - Pat |
| Jane |
Pat that is so annoying. I too have tried writing to people always enclosing a SAE. Rarely do they reply - even with a no thank you.
If you take a look at the society web site you shall find some photo's of St Cuthbert's Church taken fairly recently. I should also warn you ball is such a common name around here. Most people find a Ball, Rimmer or Wright among ancestors. As you may know the society is in the process of transcribing the monumental inscriptions for St Cuthberts. Bez is the one to ask about that but again there is something on the web site. Find us at - www.nmfhssouthport.co.uk |
| Dotty |
WOWWhat an enterprising person you are Pat. I'd never have thought of that. I hope you have some more good luck. That old duck sounds nice..Good hunting. Dotty
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| PatF |
Hello Jane and Dotty
Thanks for the posts. At the moment Jane I am still trying to work out dates for all the children from both of Thomas's marriage and I am sure quite a number of the family have connections to St Cuthberts re christenings and funerals as well as the marriages - when I get organised I will ask for further help. My Thomas and alice Ball both died in Westhoughton so that's another direction I must go!!! Dotty: I have even knocked on doors and believe me it has paid off twice. (only tried it twice!) I never thought I would have the nerve to do it but when you are so near and yet so far - the only way is to take a deep breath and knock!!! I once found a box number of an ancestor in a will and thought I would try writing - it was an address in the Bahamas and a couple of months later I got a reply with valuable info and best of all photographs of my Dad's Palmer family....you would have thought I had won the lottery!! Did the same to an address in France about 4 years ago and am still waiting for a reply  The stories we could all tell about this family history lark - someone once asked me "why do you spend so much time looking for a lot of old dead people?" (meaning why didn't I get life) what they don't realise is if it wasn't for all those old dead people WE wouldn't be here would we? Each to their own
Off to feed the dog.......thanks for taking an interest.......bye for now Pat |
| Germaine |
hi Everyone I have made a start on the Indenture going to take a long time.
Hope you understand it couldn't make out all the words. Perhaps someone can tell me where the Windmill would have been.? Best put on in pieces anyway as it is going to be so long. Will add more as I do it. Germaine x
This Indenture Made this Twenty Second Day of November in the year of Our Lord One Thousand Eight Hundred and Two . Between Thomas Eccleston of Scarisbrick in the County of Lancaster Esquiro ? on the one part and James Meadow of North Meols in the said County Miller? Of the other part. Witnoseth that in consideration of the Raoils Conounts? And Agreements herein after usould > and contained on the part of the said James Meadow and his heirs and asfrideges? Ho ? the said Thomas Eccleston by these present doth do wise to use and to farm? Doth? The said James Meadow his heirs and asfrideges. All that part of said situate in the South East Corner of a certain close of Lancashire in the Scarisbrick in aforesaid known as Mill Hey being part of Number One Hundred and Forty One in the plan on Survey of Scarisbrick aforesaid and containing in C? the measuring from the offices on the West Side of the lane along side of the said Thomas Ecclestons Paddock and the Westwards Eighty yards intil in breadth measuring from the offices to the south side of the Mill Hey. Northwards Thirty Two yards and containing in the whole one quarter of an acre to the same measure cop in the occupation of Thomas Hargreaves as tenant thereof. Together with a Liberties surveyors Advantages how of itunnous? And uppertaining except said always reserve out of the demise unto Thomas Eccleston his heirs and asfrideges. All woods ? ? woods woodlands timber and other trees Minor minerals Delph? And quarries said gravel and appointees to outer and come after the said advised ? provisore ? and source for dig work got raise cut down lay or take away kill destroy carry away and dispose of the said cos------? at pleasure and also full liberty and power for him and there to make and use anyway roads cuts canals reservoirs tunnels and aqueducts in the upon through over the said domise procrous? or any part there be and also practicality ? for the said Thomas Eccleston his heirs and asfrideges to induce force and improve for his and their own use and be input? In anyway of the commons and the waste grounds in Scarisbrick foresaid . To hold to said plot piece or parcel of said horthcut---?? And promises how in before demised ? so to be with the appretouness? (Except as aforesaid with the said James Meadow and his heirs and during the natural and soulful life and lives of James Halsall aged about 13 years James Meadow son of Henry Meadow aged about 13 years and James Meadow son of George Meadow aged about 10 years Grandsons of the said James Meadow party herein after and for the survivor of them paying said Thomas Eccleston his heirs Expenditure Administration and asfrideges to be continued!! |
| Dotty |
Oooerr...Hi GermaineYou must have the patience of Job. I'd have given up ages ago. Good luck with the rest. Dotty
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| Germaine |
That is why it is taking me so long Dotty . It is all fine scribbly and in old English. Have to wait till no one about so I can lay it out on the floor and then get on my kneees and do a bit at a time. Hard work getting up
Interesting though. I have now found a will and a marriage settlement waiting for Preston to tell me how much they will be . They are for a Shadrach Sutton but the will names some of the Meadows as benefactors so that will be interesting. One of the Meadows married a Hannah/ Ann Sutton and they are named as deceased and the money togo to there children so that has narrowed down when they died for me. it is amazing what help these documents can be. Germaine x
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| Bez |
Hi Germaine, it's a lease for 3 lives, very common type of document. Dated 1802 it should be quite easy to read but probably isn't because you haven't done many and your eyes aren't used to it or the language employed (such as "appurtenances"). I suppose it's too big to scan or scale down to A4 on a photocopier? I could almost write it out but there are a couple of bits I can't fill in from your transcription and spelling varied depending on who wrote it. However, it's a very straightforward document, but by the 19th century they got to be so long-winded with all of that legal jargon. |
| Germaine |
Hi Bez. I will take it to the post office see if it will scan down smaller. Though I do think it will be too big. Must admit I don't understand a lot of the words and like you say they were very long winded.
So it was for 3 lives that is interesting. What I can't understand is it says Scarisbrick but I do know that James 1791 was Miller in Churchtown till later than 1831. Perhaps one of the others had this mill . I don't think it was Churchtown mill was it.? Though this James did use St. Cuthberts after 1770. It is very helpful though as it names family and I have been able to tie the families together for definate. Thanks Germaine x
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| Bez |
I did have a look at the Apportionment Book for the tithe map (1839) and there was a James Meadows leased 5 plots in Mill Lane, Churchtown, but I wasn't sure which James this might be as 2 of the grandsons named on the lease had the same name. Also the landowner was Sir Henry Bold Hoghton but the owner of the Scarisbrick property was Thomas Eccleston, Esquire.
But yes, this was Churchtown Mill; the property described on the lease was in Scarisbrick - so you need an early map of Scarisbrick to look for the Mill Hey- the name of the field where it was situated. |
| Germaine |
Thanks Bez. Do think there must have been 2 mills don't you think.
I do know that James Meadows b 1744 was the one mentioned on the first lease but the one in 1839 I would think was the James born 1791 as the other would have been so old!!!. he was James 1744 grandson. Oh now this is getting stranger as in 1841 William Gregson James SIL was the miller . Do you think that James 1791 would have been alive in 1839 will this narrow down when he died I can't find his death yet. Unless this was the first lease still running I found an old map of Churchtown and there was a field called Mill Hey but like you say the lease says Scarisbrick. Oh I did see something on a site once about a field think it was called that in Upholland ?? think I will be busy this weekend looking at the old maps site see if I can find anything. Thanks again Germaine x
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| Jane |
Thomas Eccleston - he owned Scarisbrick hall. he had changed his surname from Scarisbrick when he married into the Eccleston family - more to do with getting his hands on their land and money.
Charles changed it back to Scarisbrick when he inherited the hall after his Thomas's death. |
| Germaine |
Thanks Jane I think I have read this somewhere. If I am right he died in about 1805 not long after the date on the lease.
Old maps off at the mo for maintenance. They would be when I needed them 
Germaine x |
| Germaine |
Sorry I was wrong when I said Upholland I should have said Downholland. 
This is what I found but the dates from the remains of the mill they have found there are of what would be a different mill but the field names look the same. Would you think that this is the place in the lease? Do you think perhpas james built his mill on the site of the old mill.? The tithe map of 1847 lists several field names that provide a picture of the parish in the past. It includes Pinfold field where the stray animals were impounded until their owners claimed them, and also, Brick Kiln Hey alongside Downholland Hall. That would have been the place where clay was dug and the bricks were burnt in a kiln in readiness for the buildings of the Hall. Between the canal and the main Southport road are Delph Hey and Great Delph Hey, suggesting the site of an old quarry and indeed the contours of the land today confirm this possibility. However perhaps the most interesting field names are Mill Hey, Lower Mill Hey and Great Mill Hey sited on the highest ground on the Southport road south of Haskayne canal bridge. This was the site of the village windmill - possibly the mill that was mentioned in a legal dispute in 1323. Several field paths used by the tenants when they brought their corn to be ground at the mill, still converge on the site today. Among the Quarter Sessions Petitions for 1662 is the miller’s plea to the justices for help because `the windmill was so shaken with the late boisterous and turbulent wind that unfortunately all the roof of the said milne was blown off and the said milne is now in danger to go to utter ruin’. What help he received is not recorded. Unfortunately the mill was demolished many years ago but the red sandstone outcrop on which it was built has recently been excavated by the farmer. Germaine x
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| Bez |
I would have thought that Downholland was a bit too far away - in any case the lease would have said Downholland. I would have thought that Scarisbrick Hall would have had its own mill anyway and the lease did mention a common boundary with Thomas Eccleston's land. (His paddock to be exact). It also gives you the plot number (141) on the plan of the survey of Scarisbrick - this would be a survey commissioned by the landowner so it might be an idea to ask at the LRO. It says it consists of ¼ of an acre, but it doesn't mention a mill, only that James is of North Meols and is a miller, and that the field was called Mill Hey. You really need to look at the survey to see if there is a mill marked on it for that plot.
Leases for 3 lives ran until all 3 people named on them were dead, unless the landowner agreed to add a life when someone died (for a further fee, of course). |
| Germaine |
Hi Bez.
Don't know my geography too well to know where is where.
Ah now I see i hadn't thought about it belonging to the Hall. Another thing to add to my list of things to look at when I get to the records office. The lease was definately to build a new Mill Couldn't get the document out today ( kids and dogs ) but it does mention a Wind Corn Mill also there is mention of a 2 storey house think it said with 2 bay windows.
Perhaps it is one of the other sons that had the Mill in Scarisbrick at the time when James was in Churchtown. The James in Churchtown was the grandson of James that the lease was made out to. But one of his sons George could have been in Scarisbrick or one of the other Grandsons. The whole family seem to be millers. Just had a look on the old maps site. There is a mill marked in Scarisbrick the map is 1847 so could this be it. Sorry for being such a pain and a bit thick!!! thanks Germaine x
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| Bez |
For the mill - sounds likely if you've found it on a map. The house might have been a "two bay" house rather than having 2 bay windows - not a very big house at all. A five bay house would be rather large. |
| Germaine |
Thanks That is interesting about the house will double check later when I can get to the floor. What does bay mean wass it a sort of measurement.
Germaine x
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| Bez |
The bays were the bits between the upright posts forming the house. Probably easier to draw than describe. |
| Germaine |
Ah i know what bays are now I was watching Grundy's Northern Pride and he explained.
Germaine x |
| Bez |
I must have missed that bit then. |
| Germaine |
It was when they were at Lytham Hall he said it was 9 bays wide meaing 9 windows.
Germaine x
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| Bez |
I'm not convinced that is the same thing - you could have more than one window within a bay - think of them as sections of a house. I can see I may have to find an appropriate illustration. |
| Germaine |
Ah Thanks Bez. I think I see what you mean yes a bay can have a number of windows. I thought perhaps a window had an average width and this was called a bay.
The windows in the Hall looked to be all flat if you know what I mean. Germaine x
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| Bez |
Germaine - I am sending you a book illustration as an email attachment. It is of an earlier date, but illustrates what I mean very well. |
| Germaine |
Thanks Bez
Germaine x |
| Bez |
Thought other people might like to see the illustration of a 3 bay house. Taken from "Village Records" by John West.
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| Dotty |
ThanksWell I find it fascinating Bez. Thanks for bothering to post the details.TTFN Dotty 
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