Sutcliffes of Tulketh Street

sutcliffe · Sutcliffes of Tulketh Street

Am searching for information about the Sutcliffe family of Tulketh Street ,
Southport who lived there from about 1880 and had living descendents there as far as c.1990 , the last I am aware of being my uncle Denis who worked for the gas board and later as bookkeeper for the Bold hotel.
The oldest member , Isaac , was born in Accrington in 1850 and founded a family business as a marine store dealer, a rather elaborate name for what I take to be a scrap-metal business. He seems for a while to have been very successful and possibly was so affluent that he was able to lease the old tram sheds for his own use. It is said that he had a drink problem and used to hand out money to the less fortunate when returning from the pub. Apparently , after he died a number of houses in Tulketh St. and elsewhere were in the possession of various family members. Number 90 is still standing , I believe. Next to it he probably had his scrap yard.
Isaac died in 1908 and left a widow and five children. William , Anne. Mary , Richard and Elizabeth.
His wife Hannah Caroline Howard was , as the name suggests , a descendent of the numerous Howard dynasties connected with North Meols.
What intrigues me , however , is further information about Isaac , his business and children. My grandfather Richard b. 1879 d. 1955 continued the business with his brother William b. 1874 d. ?. Does anyone know for how long and how successfully?
Some other facts I know are that William married Annie Brown( b. 1879) of Birkdale in 1902. Her father Thomas came from Southport and was a joiner. He was born in 1849. I can find one child of William and Annie but alas I do not know if she lived to be an adult . Her name was also Hannah Caroline (Sutcliffe) b. 1903. Were there further children?
Elizabeth b 1873 d. 1965 married Edward Sutton in 1901 and has living descendents who I am aware of. Edward was a police inspector and also lived in Tulketh street before marrying Elizabeth.
There is also a rumour that my grandfather Richard had a lady friend after the death of his wife Emma Doonan . I would be interested to know i someone could confirm this.
The Doonans came from West Derby/ Wallasey and if anyone has contacts in this direction.please post ,too

bobg

Information from Seed's 1914-15 Directory indicates the Sutcliffes were still continuing the marine supply business in Isaac's name on Tulketh St.

51 Tulketh St, Sutcliffe Wm., marine store dealer

53a SUTCLIFFE ISAAC, marine store dealer and metal merchant; tel. 788

90 Sutcliffe Mrs Hannah, marine store dealer.

The bold type & telephone number in the entry for number 53a appears to indicate that the business operated from this address.

Hope this helps a little.

SeaCopRimmer

1914-15 Street Directory:
51 Tulketh Street : Sutcliffe, W., Marine str.dlr
53a Tulketh Street : Sutcliffe, Isaac; Tel: 788
90 Tulketh Street : Mrs Hannah Sutcliffe, Marine Store Dir

1920-21:
53a Tulketh Street : Isaac Sutcliffe
88 Tulketh Street : Edward Sutton
90 Tulketh Street : Sutcliffe's Exors

Don't know what Exors are? Sorry, didn't have any more time to look further

bobg

Executors??

bobg

Maybe a search for the death and will of Hannah Sutcliffe will unearth more details

sutcliffe · Sutcliffes of Tulketh Street

Thanks for all the tips. William Sutcliffe and Annie Brown also had a child in 1903. Their address is given as 55 Tulketh street . Exors is probably short for executors and seems to be where the bulk of the family lived . As I said , I think number 90 is still standing but all the buildings on that side next to it are taken up by garage and car-sale facilities . Not sure about the fifty numbers though.
Any ideas where I can find the family wills or cemetery records for the family ? Obituary for Isaac could possibly be in the Southport Visiter , I believe it is located nearby.
Thanks again ,
Paul Sutcliffe

Jane

Bez is the one to advise re wills

Cemetery records - you can phone the local crematorium office if you know when they died
Tel: Southport(01704) 533443

Old Southport Visiters are available on film at Southport Reference Library - if you are a society member and can't get to the library I do look ups

sutcliffe · look ups

Yes , I am a member but unfortunately I live in Germany and only come to England about once a year. If you have the time I would be very thankful.
A couple of years ago someone advised me of the advert for Isaac´s business printed on the last page of Geoff Wright´s " Southport a Century ago ". It is included under the sub heading of " Pieces from the Papers ".
There are probably several more of this sort but I don´t know in which papers they were printed because there are no sources given . He advertises himself as a licensed marine store dealer and broker. Does anyone know what licensed meant at that time ? Secondly I know from Isaac´s marriage certificate of 1873 that he was married in the Wesleyan Chapel , Mornington road and that his occupation is listed as a broker´s assistant . What did a broker do ? Were there specific standards you had to reach to become a broker ? Has that anything to do with the licensing ?
I believe that in later years the family had a pew in the Anglican church on Lord street , but this is again hearsay from my deceased father.
Paul

Jane

I knew we had a member of your name but wasn't sure it was the same person

I can't answer the above but can ask in the library. If you want anything looking up please email it to me - secretary@nmfhssouthport.co.uk

I am probably going to the library on Friday and will also be in there next week. I usually visit at least once a week

Bez

bobg

The death of a Hannah C Sutcliffe, age 69 was registered Ormskirk March quarter of 1920, volume 8b, page 1252.

With this information a copy of the death certificate may be ordered on line at www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/ for 7 pounds, payment by credit card is acceptable. The certificate will be sent by post.

Bez

Thanks for supplying that info, Bobg - I would have had to look it up and I was too tired last night.

I think the info re obtaining Wills is also online.

sutcliffe

Again thanks for all the help. This is a reply to my question about the term broker and the provenance of the advert published in Geoff Wright´s book , received from Bob of Landy Publishing.( LFHHS)

"The advert referred to is not from a paper, but probably from a
directory or perhaps a bazaar handbook. Exactly which I don't know.

A broker in my view is a general dealer. he would have interests in
many fields so long as he could buy it and sell it : furniture,
ironmongery - anything."

Im still interested in the term "licensed ",though. What did you have to do to obtain a license? A registration fee or were there some kind of other qualifications and regulations ?
Interesting too is that in the 1881 census he is referred to as a marine store dealer but with the appendage " employing 2 men and 1 coster woman". A "coster" I take to be a person selling things from a handcart. Is this correct? At that time he was living in Back Virginia Street.
Paul

Dotty · I rememebr...

When I was a girl (last week) we had rag and bone men who would push a handcart round the streets shouting "Old iron and ragbone" and if you had an old bucket with a hole in it you'd take it out to him and he's give you a coin.

I would call them a costermonger...what does anyone else think?

Dotty

Jane

Found this site listed under useful sites -

http://www.rmhh.co.uk/occup/

Coster - Peddler of fruits and vegetables

sutcliffe

Yes , this is basically what I believe. I suspect that the idea of a license and the new terminology " marine store dealer " was an attempt to move away from the more pejorative connotations of "pedlar"and " rag and bone man ".
The new nomenclature makes it sound more of a respectable trade.
Interesting though that even in modern Germany the scrap-metal dealer with the small cart/ pick-up truck seems to be making a comeback. I remember as a child frequently hearing " any old iron" shouted in my neighbourhood- the word "iron" accentuated and elongated.
Paul

Dotty · Mr Jones

We used to have a Mr Jones who delivered fresh veg by horse and cart (the horse's name was Tony) every Friday afternoon. Uncle Harry and Uncle Ted used to wait with their buckets and shovels to scoop up any deposits that Tony saw fit to leave...

Ahhh, it all comes flooding back...

SeaCopRimmer

I don't think we should be too derogatory about the term 'marine store dealer' - during the late 1800's (up to very early 1900) there were almost 300 fishing boats moored alongside Southport Pier - so I would imagine there was a good living to be made supplying all them Wink

sutcliffe

That´s highly possible and that is why I suspect that the licensing was an important aspect to separate them from the other dealers. Marine store dealer originally had something to do with those dealers who specialised in ship´s rigging , sails and rope , I believe . Later it became a more general term and in the iron age probably was replaced by scrap metal merchant.
There is a discussion about this but I can´t remember where.
Paul

Jane

Paul can you tell me exactly what it is you would like me to look for in the library? I shall be going with Seacop tomorrow.

sutcliffe

I am looking for any obituary notices for Isaac after his death on 11th May 1908. Also interesting would be any adverts / information about his business dealings in the nineteenth century. It would be interesting to clear up if he was really only a scrap merchant.
Were his anecdotal flashes of generosity really only products of drink or was
he in any way involved in charitable organisations or in the larger social life of Southport ? A rather broad area I´m afraid.
A million thanks, though. Will make the effort to get over this summer but would also like to know where the whole Sutcliffe family had its burial plot , any memorial inscriptions etc.
Paul.
PS. If my father is to be believed , Edward Sutton´s burial ( husband of Elizabeth Sutcliffe ) was a big event. Apparently accompanied by both the Southport Police Force and Fire Brigade.He was born in 1859 and died in 1939.

Jane

I will look for a funeral or death notice and see if that helps.

That site I mentioned about occupations gives this for broker -
"Essentially a salesman or middleman to a supplier for arranging sales"

If you can find out when Edward Sutcliffe died - more than a year - I could look for his death/funeral. There were 3 Southport Visiter newspapers a week so I couldn't look through a years worth!

SeaCopRimmer

In the 50's/60's in Southport there was a guy called Percy Sutcliffe who was a second-hand dealer and my stepfather used to do deliveries for him; I believe his daughter carried on the business long after Percy died - any connection?

Bez · Re: I rememebr...

Dotty · True

I heartily concur... Cool

Dotty · I remember...

My former hubbie used to play cricket with a Tony Sutcliffe who was/is an antique dealer...maybe it is in the genes.

Dotty

sutcliffe

One of the more modern links to Southport is my late uncle Denis.There are possibly some people who still remember him. He was the son of Richard , Isaac´s son , a member of the Conservative club and as a younger man a fine snooker player . I believe he even played an exhibition match against Joe Davies , one of the best snooker players ever , or so my father recounted. He was unmarried and , unfortunately , as a ten year -old fell off a wall and severely damaged his leg . For the rest of his life he had to wear a leg -iron and walked with a pronounced limp . He lived and worked in the sunset years of his life ( after retirement from the gas-board) in the Bold Hotel .
He used to tell me stories about the Liverpool players such as Geoff Strong who came in for an occasional drink but would never drink more than halves because of Shankley´s sweat box on the next morning.
Paul

Dotty · Small world

Did your uncle also used work as a panel beater at Hollands the Ford dealership on the corner of Eastbank Street and Virginnia Street, opposite the Shakespeare pub? I seem to remember meeting him at a works dance...once seen, never forgotten.

Dotty Wink

sutcliffe

Just to clear up the discussion about the term "broker" : when Isaac married in 1873 he gave his occupation as assistant broker. After looking at Pigot´s directory for Lancs in 1822, it seems to me that broker was a well established occupation , meaning "middleman". Thus in the Liverpool / Ormskirk area of the time there are references to brokers for corn, cotton , tobacco , ships and separate entries for pawnbrokers . Another similar occupation may have been the provision dealer, who seems to have specialized in food and groceries.
The adaptability/ the enterprising nature of the people of the time is perhaps best symbolized by how many of our ancestors , who were previously no more-not meant in any way belittling or condescending- than agricultural labourers or at best farmers,wool /cotton -weavers, later factory workers , suddenly became shop owners or ran their own businesses. In our age where educational qualifications are paramount , it is a timely reminder of what people can achieve if given a new set of circumstances, a new beginning , something which attracted so many of the time to emigrate to the States or Australia .
Paul Sutcliffe

Dotty · Quite

Fascinating...but I'm glad I live in these times, it must have been a hard life back then.

Dotty Crying or Very sad

sutcliffe

Thanks to Seacop and Jane I have some new info about Isaac´s beginnings in North Meols. He was an assistant broker to his uncle George Hacking , who was in his later life both a town councillor and JP in the town.
As he seems to have had no children of his own he entrusted his business to Isaac after his retirement.
George was born in Accrington in about 1832 and married Elizabeth Holcroft in Clitheroe in 1854.The 1861census lists him as a furniture broker still living in New Accrington. In 1871 he is resident at 26a Bridge St, North Meols . His occupation is given as furniture broker and marine store dealer, employing like Isaac later 2 men and 1 woman. In 1881 he has moved to 21 Upper Portland St., has retired and is a town councillor. In 1891 he is living at 50 Ash St. I would imagine there would be a lot of proceedings and minutes of the time in which his name is mentioned.
Paul

Jane

It's good when you can put more than a few dates down on paper for an ancestor.

I recently found some information about an ancestor of my husband's who was a JP. He was listed in a local directory with dates (years) at the side of when he was made a JP & when he was to retire. I then found the local paper for that election and there was even a photo. In fact I have all the information ready to write an article for the magazine - when I find the time Shocked

Dotty · Meat on the bones

I concur Jane and can't wait to see the photo from the newspaper of my ancestor who died in the great war.

Am looking forward to the magazine article...

Dotty Very Happy

sutcliffe

Have just received a death certificate for Isaac Sutcliffe´s father William in Accrington . It explains to a certain degree why there was so little information about generations beyond the Southport lot and why I had to work so damned hard for that information . According to the death certificate , William
" hanged himself by the neck with a rope from a hook in the wall of his cellar
whilst of unsound mind". There was an inquest held on 18th June 1883 , Does anyone know where I can find the record of it ?
Paul

Jane

Coroner's reports have a closure of 75 years on them. And even after that time there is little chance they survive

You could try looking in a newspaper for the area - they often have inquest reports.

Yvonne

My gt grandfather was found dead in a lock in Staffordshire and had a coroners report, so I wrote to Staffordshire Records Office and they provided me with a copy of the newspaper report.

Not sure which RO Accrington would come under but I'm sure if you 'google' something may come up

sutcliffe

I´ve managed to get a report from a local newspaper . It is obviously about the right person but not for the first time the reporter is not so accurate when it comes to the naming of people . His wife´s first name is incorrect . Seems like it was his second attempt so he must have really meant it!
Paul

Jane

I'm guessing but Lancashire Record Office in Preston maybe

Yvonne

That was quick sutcliff Laughing

sutcliffe

I got help from the LFHHS. It´s a good group to join if you want info about any area in Lancs. The discussion group are usually pretty good about anything in Accrington . Just as with this group , they have people who are called "helping hands" prepared to do look ups .
Most family history depends on volunteers who are willing to offer their own research / time etc. I have so far been able to avoid those cowboys who are out to earn money and whose own research is usually not particularly original. I have been pleasantly impressed by the number of people , including transcribers of church records , librarians and so on who have been
willing to share their knowledge with me .
Paul

Jane

I am thick - who/what is LFHHS?

sutcliffe

The Lancashire Family History and Heraldry Society . President: Tony Foster.
www.lfhhs.org.uk
Ordinary membership costs 12 pounds. UK pensioners and students 9.50.
You can put all your family history interests into the mag ( just like the Sandgrounder). You can put your names into a pedigree file so that other members with the same family interests can contact you. There are also different branches for the different areas of Lancs and an email discussion group on Yahoo run by David Burgess . You can also get access to an online magazine. There is the same level of expertise and knowledge as in this group but on a broader area of Lancs. Hope that helps / convinces.
Paul

Jane

Thanks for that Paul. I'm sure it will be of use to lots of people.

Sutcliffes of Tulketh Street

Sutcliffes of Tulketh Street

look ups

I rememebr...

Mr Jones

Re: I rememebr...

True

I remember...

Small world

Quite

Meat on the bones