An early record of the Preston Guilds 1397 lists on the Roll of Free Burgesses of Preston, John of the Males and Geoffrey de Meles.
In his ' Memorials of the Preston Guilds' 1882 , William Alexander Abram states that "The local surnames of the second half of the fourteenth century were mostly of four descriptions; first , those derived from the locality to which the the family was attached with the prefix 'de'; secondly, a few Norman surnames, thirdly, those which denoted businesses or occupations, with the prefix 'le'; and, fourthly, those formed out of the paternal or maternal name, with the affix 'son'. " Abram puts de Meles in the first group along with names such as De Fleetwood, De Wigan, De Leyland , De Alston, De Fyshwick etc.
He goes on to state that " the connection is obvious of the Burgesses of Preston who bore some of the names in the first caregory with the local townships or manors of Preston, Wigan, Hoghton, Meols "(p. 10).
It might be worth checking how long de Meles is recorded on these rolls which were published every twenty years, and when , or if , there was a
name change.
Paul Sutcliffe
There is another good book on Southport which is available second hand:
"A History of Southport" by Francis A Bailey which was first printed in 1955 and then reprinted in 1992 by Sefton Council to mark the bi-centenary of Southport.
PS. That's something else to confuse the unwary. Southport is now administered by Sefton Council with the centre of administration being in Bootle.
_________________ Middle-aged and seeking the middle-ages!
Paul, thanks so much.
I have been reading "The Middle Sort of People in Provincial England, 1600-1750
By Henry",
and find my researching so very enlightening.
Jim
_________________ Change is inevitable, growth is optional.
All of this confusion is from 1974 onwards. I see our ancestors as being a lot more direct (and honest) in their dealings with other folk.
I sit in my conservatory at my potting bench, sorting out seedlings while watching the hens in the garden and I think of my predecessors as I look across to the roof of the church founded by my ancestors. I try to imagine them growing their own produce and rearing their livestock; doing what they needed to keep body and soul together, and I like to think that I'm emulating them in a small way.
They led incredibly hard lives - worked hard and played hard (which is what I did when younger). They lived and loved in the same way that we do - that never changes - but apart from their lifestyle, I think the only confusing thing was the North Meols dialect which was unintelligible to outsiders unless you happened to be Norwegian, when you apparently stood a good chance of understanding what was being said. Regrettably my parents' generation was the last one to be brought up to speak it on a regular basis. The dialect was probably responsible for a lot of variation in spelling in the Parish Registers as the Rector and Curates were invariably outsiders unfamiliar with the dialect and who would have just written names down how they sounded. In fact, with some of the names such as Rimmer, you can see when someone new started to write the Registers because the spelling changed.
Anyway, it wasn't the local people who decided that we should become part of "Merseyside" and that our council should be named after a tiny village that's so small if you blink you'd miss it. (It's probably quite charming but there doesn't seem to be anything much there).
So.........sorry if I have confused you about locations, it wasn't intentional, but some of us feel very strongly that we are historically and geographically Lancastrians and you've probably guessed by now that I am one of them.
PS. Did I mention that I have de Meols ancestors?
_________________ Middle-aged and seeking the middle-ages!
Quite interesting about your de Meols ancestory, Bez. No...you had not mentioned that.
I quite agree with you about your ancestors being more direct and honest.
I find the same true with mine as well. While on my "soap box", I must say, I find that ("that"...being direct and honest) a result of parents today having a different value system than our generation. Someone once told me they believe parents should be educated how to raise their children. I responded by saying, "I too believe parents should be taught...at about age 5". (!)
OK, after having said that (whew ! ), I am trying to determine where I fit into the family tree. I thought it quite interesting the 1841 Census found 23 listings of the surname Mails. Could that be from someone of that day spelling the name like it sounded, rather than coming from accurate documentation?
Jim
_________________ Change is inevitable, growth is optional.
Even though I'm not from these parts - born & bred in Lincoln so a yellow belly! I am finding all this chat really interesting. Obviously I have a great interest in local history, maybe because to me Southport is so new, Lincoln being Roman. I have read & own many of the local history books but there is always more to learn.
Which I think is one reason I feel people should be writing these things down for future generations. Just think of all the true local history that has been lost down the generations. I would have loved to have read about ordinary everyday life of my Grandma for example. Things we might think boring won't be to our Grand children in the future - although my own really have little interest in history. I think it is one of those subjects you become more interested in as you get older.
I too found I went off at a tangent when i first started my husband's family history. Thankfully from what I've learnt he doesn't seem to have a connection with The Scarisbrick family from the Hall - although it would have been nice to live in the stately home And have fun on the way learning about lots of other things
The best advice though Jim is to start from what you know and work back generation by generation until you can find evidence of any links
_________________ Mad on Genealogy or just plain mad? :)
OK, after having said that (whew ! ), I am trying to determine where I fit into the family tree. I thought it quite interesting the 1841 Census found 23 listings of the surname Mails. Could that be from someone of that day spelling the name like it sounded, rather than coming from accurate documentation?
Jim
Accurate documentation??
Spelling was not fixed for anything - you only have to look at old documents and correspondence to see that. After all dictionaries are a fairly recent phenomenon and I suspect that it is only because of them that spelling has become standardised. Old documents also used a form of shorthand, although the abbreviations used were "standard" ones (I did a talk on this last year). For example the name Christopher would appear as Xopher, and please don't get me going on the use of "ye" and "the" as that always has me tearing my hair out.
Everything was written down phonetically and the spelling varied according to the writer. To go back to the Rimmer variations of Rimmer, Rimer, Rymer, Rymmer (have I missed any out, Seacop?) you get comments in the Registers when someone put one variant into the register but another in the Bishop's transcripts. I found even more variations when I did the one name extract of the Hootons. (Hooton, Hooten, Hoten, Hyton, Huyton, Houghton, Cooten and even one instance of Aughton). Spelling varied within the same family groups so that children might be entered into the Registers with different spellings to their parents name. My 5x gr grandfather Thomas Hooton married Jane Rymer, but her father's name in his Will is spelled Rimmer. Joyce Otterstrom on her "Park" database originally had Jane's father down as a John Rymer but corrected the mistake when I sent her a copy of the Will so that now she is the daughter of Thomas Rimmer.
Ignore the spelling - go for the sound instead.
_________________ Middle-aged and seeking the middle-ages!
I agree with Bez - listen to the names rather than read them! When in the Lancashire Record Office recently I found some notes in the front of a Parish Register written in shorthand - I was gobsmacked that I could translate most of it even though it had been written in the very early 1700's; this merely confirmed my belief that Parish Clerks used phonetics which gives us the variations in a number of surnames these days.
Don't think you've missed any variants of Rimmer, Bez - but I wonder how many we could come up with if we listed those from the numerous Census Returns
_________________ I may be a shrimp but I'm BIG on family history
Accurate documentation indeed Bez,
as I have been pulling my hair all day on that one. It has taken me some time to realize that, listening and digesting what I have gotten on this thread.
I am now reading and copying the history information on the two links you sent previous. The library in Fort Wayne, Indiana has a copy of "Annals of Southport and district. A chronological history of North Meols from Alfred the Great to Edward VII.
by E Bland ",
and I look forward to reading it.
I am also finding links of ancestry in Chester. As I can, I will forward these to you.
Thanks ever so much for all the information.
Jim
_________________ Change is inevitable, growth is optional.
That is Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA, not Fort Worth which is in Texas, USA.
I sent them an e-mail asking to check the book out. They said they could not send it to me, because none of the material from the Genealogy Center circulates. They did say however, they could send me copies of specific information, and they sent me a form to utilize that service.
Dotty, I will check for relatives in that area.
Jim
_________________ Change is inevitable, growth is optional.
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And have fun on the way learning about lots of other things
